# George Through the Looking-Glass **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 28, 2007, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776 "2007-05-28T13:04:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/1 "2007-05-28T13:04:32Z")
I put this in the Pit because I think we may want to curse. Here’s the CNN story: [Bush uses bin Laden to defend Iraq war policy](http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/05/23/bush.iraq/index.html). > [@](#): > > President Bush used declassified intelligence about Osama bin Laden Wednesday to defend his Iraq war policy. > > During a commencement address at the Coast Guard Academy, the president mentioned declassified intelligence that said bin Laden discussed sending a top lieutenant in 2005 to Iraq to set up a base from which to launch attacks in the United States. > > “There’s a reason bin Laden sent one of his most experienced paramilitary leaders to Iraq,” Bush said. “He believes that if al Qaeda can drive us out, they can establish Iraq as a new terrorist sanctuary.” > > The president acknowledged that critics “question whether the fight in Iraq is part of the war on terror.” > > He said “the best way to protect our people is to take the fight to the enemy … so we do not have to face them at home.” There’s more to the story, but that’s the essence of the argument he’s using: 1. Thanks to our invasion of Iraq and the subsequent years of chaos, Iraq is now a suitable place for al Qaeda to set up training (which it never was before); 2. Al Qaeda is therefore now one of the many groups blowing people up in Iraq; 3. This justifies, in fact, requires, our continuing our occupation of the country (which created the situation in the first place); (Please note: Bush doesn’t make this argument accompanied by any expression of deep, agonizing shame, contrition and sense of worthlessness at having **caused the situation**.) 1. Somehow, us being in Iraq prevents al Qaeda from putting together an operation in the U.S. (I’m not sure how this part works, but even if it’s true – is he actually saying that spending half a trillion dollars and countless lives is the best possible use of resources to prevent terrorist attacks? Should we just occupy Iraq forever, then?) Anyway, we’ve heard all this halfwit bullshit before; I guess what amazes me is how much the message hasn’t changed, and how the same ridiculous arguments are being used. Here’s a little fantasy: the lying, intelligence-insulting sack of shit currently resting his frat-boy ass behind the desk in the Oval Office is forced to come on the SDMB and defend his positions logically. If he retreats behind jingoistic talking points, he’ll have to give us a cogent explanation of what exactly they mean in the real world. Well, you guys take it from here, or don’t. Maybe we’ve all got outrage fatigue and are so used to the leader of the free world saying patently stupid things that it’s just not remarkable any more. God damn that smirking putz. I hate feeling this way about my own President. (Edited to correct coding.) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/2 "2007-05-28T13:34:27Z")
I have to admit, I am pretty Bushed. The low points just keep coming, the government of this country has become a blur of capering monkeys alternately throwing feces at each other and scratching each other’s backs. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/3 "2007-05-28T13:41:58Z")
He’s a fucking tard who can’t follow a thought from A to B, much less from A to B to C. You want a looking glass, try this stream on for size. Dipshit in the Whitehouse (5/23/07): …the best way to protect our people is to take the fight to the enemy … so we do not have to face them at home. Dipshit in the Whitehouse (5/25/07): We are there at the invitation of the Iraqi government. This is a sovereign nation. If they were to say leave, we would leave. Now, there are two ways we can take this jackass’s statement. 1. We need to fight the Terists there so we don’t have to fight them over here at home. Unless the Iraqi government asks us to, at which point we’re going to have to fight there here at home. So, apparently the **Iraqi government** now has a decisive say in US defense policy. 2. The Iraqi government invited the US to invade Iraq. Which is funny, since I’m guessing Saddam Hussein would have voted “no” on that one. So, George, we have to fight them over there to save us from having to fight them over here - unless the Iraqis would prefer we stop using their country as a battleground to keep NASCAR moms safe? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/4 "2007-05-28T13:48:38Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] …So, George, we have to fight them over there to save us from having to fight them over here - unless the Iraqis would prefer we stop using their country as a battleground to keep NASCAR moms safe? -Joe [/QUOTE] I am thinking of some combination of NASCAR and car bombs, either here or in Iraq. I’m not even sure if it’s terrorism or a form of extreme sport. But it would make for great TV. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/5 "2007-05-28T14:01:42Z")
And a majority of Republicans still support him and what he is doing. His approval rating is near 30%. Given that GOP voters comprise no more than about 50% of total voters, 3 in 5 of them support Bush. I suspect the supporting GOP percentage is higher than that because there is a fair percentage of independent voters and so the total percentage of GOP voters is probably more like 40% of total voters. That would mean that 3 in 4 support GW. Gives you pause, doesn’t it? Or at least it does me. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/6 "2007-05-28T14:27:45Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] And a majority of Republicans still support him and what he is doing. His approval rating is near 30%. Given that GOP voters comprise no more than about 50% of total voters, 3 in 5 of them support Bush. I suspect the supporting GOP percentage is higher than that because there is a fair percentage of independent voters and so the total percentage of GOP voters is probably more like 40% of total voters. That would mean that 3 in 4 support GW. Gives you pause, doesn’t it? Or at least it does me. [/QUOTE] I was thinking about the Republican candidates the other day. 3 in 10 don’t believe in evolution, and 8 in 10 seem to think torture is ok. WTF kind of base are they trying to appeal to? The Zodiac Killer? ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/7 "2007-05-28T14:28:03Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] And a majority of Republicans still support him and what he is doing. His approval rating is near 30%. Given that GOP voters comprise no more than about 50% of total voters, 3 in 5 of them support Bush. I suspect the supporting GOP percentage is higher than that because there is a fair percentage of independent voters and so the total percentage of GOP voters is probably more like 40% of total voters. That would mean that 3 in 4 support GW. Gives you pause, doesn’t it? Or at least it does me. [/QUOTE] I don’t necessarily believe the polls, but. . . Those 30% are either people who art part of the “club” or people trying desperately to be part of it. They support Bush without actually _thinking_ about we what’s doing. I’d be interested in polling those 30% with, “ **Do you think the US would be justified in using nuclear weapons in Iraq to support the war on terror?** ” I suspected the answer would be damned scary. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/8 "2007-05-28T14:40:24Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Given that GOP voters comprise no more than about 50% of total voters [/QUOTE] You want numbers? [I got yer numbers right here, pal.](http://www.rasmussenresearch.com/2007/March/partyAffliationMarch2007.htm) > [@](#): > > Apr 2007: Republican 31.0%, Democrat 36.5%, Independent/Other 32.4% You \*could \* spin that to say the Goppers are now in third place. But there are certainly those who still insist the problem is Bush’s poor ability to communicate his message, not the message itself, even after 7 years. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/9 "2007-05-28T15:00:01Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] Well, you guys take it from here, or don’t. Maybe we’ve all got outrage fatigue and are so used to the leader of the free world saying patently stupid things that it’s just not remarkable any more. God damn that smirking putz. I hate feeling this way about my own President. [/QUOTE] 1. Dub, if you spent the billions upon billions of dollars you’ve wasted on this ‘war’ on intelligence and small, targeted operations by special forces, you would still be ‘fighting them there’ without wiping out a whole country’s infrastructure and far too many of its people. 2. What’s worse is that Americans haven’t long ago risen in mass protest to demand he be removed from office. You people badly, badly need a non confidence mechanism in your government. As in one that actually can defeat the government and cause it to fall. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/10 "2007-05-28T15:07:04Z")
Our government has 3 parts to it, and we can have confidence in 1 or 2 and none in the other 1 or 2 simultaneously. We do have ways to make any of them “fall”, but they’re either indirect (frequent elections) or the Nuclear Option (impeachment). ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/11 "2007-05-28T15:09:56Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Our government has 3 parts to it, and we can have confidence in 1 or 2 and none in the other 1 or 2 simultaneously. We do have ways to make any of them “fall”, but they’re either indirect (frequent elections) or the Nuclear Option (impeachment). [/QUOTE] I know. We have a direct method. A vote of non-confidence = buh-bye PM, go talk to the GG and dissolve government. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/12 "2007-05-28T15:20:59Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] You want numbers? [I got yer numbers right here, pal.](http://www.rasmussenresearch.com/2007/March/partyAffliationMarch2007.htm)You \*could \* spin that to say the Goppers are now in third place. But there are certainly those who still insist the problem is Bush’s poor ability to communicate his message, not the message itself, even after 7 years. [/QUOTE] it would appear that GW’s appeal is nearly 100% among registered Republicans. Stop. You’re scaring me. > [@DudleyGarrett](#): > > Those 30% are either people who art part of the “club” or people trying desperately to be part of it. They support Bush without actually thinking about we what’s doing. I’m not so sure about that. I do believe they are thinking. They are thinking that Saddam had a big hand in the WTF/Pentagon attacks. They are thinking that national survival is at stake and so invading Iraq was justified and torture and indefinite confinement of detainees is called for. They are thinking that because Democrats in general don’t think like that, it would be fatal to elect one as president. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/13 "2007-05-28T15:34:30Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] it would appear that GW’s appeal is nearly 100% among registered Republicans. Stop. You’re scaring me. [/QUOTE] Looking at the drop over time in numbers of self-identified Republicans, it can also mean that GW-antipathy has driven a helluva lot of Republicans all the way out of the party. The scary part is that there are so many true believers _left_. But then, consider [The Alan Keyes Theory](http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2005/week44/index.html): > [@](#): > > John Rogers, of Kung fu monkey, takes a less hypothetical approach. He believes that the absolute bottom threshhold for a Republican politician can be measured precisely, and offers an exact figure for this azimuth, which he calls the "Crazification Factor. Rock bottom, Rogers suggests, is 27 percent: > > John: Hey, Bush is now at 37 percent approval. I feel much less like Kevin McCarthy screaming in traffic. But I wonder what his base is – > Tyrone: 27 percent. > > John: … you said that immmediately, and with some authority. > > Tyrone: Obama vs. Alan Keyes. Keyes was from out of state, so you can eliminate any established political base; both candidates were black, so you can factor out racism; and Keyes was plainly, obviously, completely crazy. Batshit crazy. Head-trauma crazy. But 27 percent of the population of Illinois voted for him. They put party identification, personal prejudice, whatever ahead of rational judgement. Hell, even like 5 percent of Democrats voted for him. That’s crazy behaviour. I think you have to assume a 27 percent Crazification Factor in any population. > > John: Objectively crazy or crazy vis-a-vis my own inertial reference frame for rational behavior? I mean, are you creating the Theory of Special Crazification or General Crazification? > > Tyrone: Hadn’t thought about it. Let’s split the difference. Half just have worldviews which lead them to disagree with what you consider rationality even though they arrive at their positions through rational means, and the other half are the core of the Crazification – either genuinely crazy; or so woefully misinformed about how the world works, the bases for their decision making is so flawed they may as well be crazy. > > John: You realize this leads to there being over 30 million crazy people in the US? > > Tyrone: Does that seem wrong? > > John: … a bit low, actually. > Note that CBS figure for Dick Cheney again: 19 percent. He’s polling a third below Alan Keyes. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/14 "2007-05-28T21:06:40Z")
This being Memorial Day, I just saw a headline saying “Bush Honors War Dead”. I immediately pictured an _Onion_-style headline: “Bush Causes, Honors War Dead.” ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/15 "2007-05-29T02:01:42Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] But there are certainly those who still insist the problem is Bush’s poor ability to communicate his message, not the message itself, even after 7 years. [/QUOTE] The problem is clearly that the liberal media distorts our wonderful president’s message. If only there were a news network that acted as an extension of the Republican Party, then everything would be great! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Plynck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/16 "2007-05-29T14:21:50Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] I was thinking about the Republican candidates the other day. 3 in 10 don’t believe in evolution, and 8 in 10 seem to think torture is ok. WTF kind of base are they trying to appeal to? [/QUOTE] People who are suffering from post traumatic stress disorder because their grandparents were attacked by dinosaurs? Seriously, there was a piece on the BBC the other day about the Creationist Museum. They interviewed a PR flack from the museum for his side of the story, and then a shell-shocked scientist from the world of the sane. The announcer went on to say that 45% of the US population believe that the world was created 6,000 years ago. Reading [this article](http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1489520,00.html), they seem to have got it a bit wrong. It is 45% of Bush voters that believe in creationism, so no - it doesn’t surprise me that Bush has a 30% approval rating. Although I’m still trying to understand how 24% of Kerry’s voters also want creationism taught in schools.\* I’m sick of the rest of the world wondering how we can all fit on the short bus. \*Unless we are talking about Clown College ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/17 "2007-05-29T22:00:16Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] go talk to the GG and dissolve government. [/QUOTE] If I could, I would. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/18 "2007-05-30T00:40:15Z")
[QUOTE=Plynck] Reading [this article](http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1489520,00.html), they seem to have got it a bit wrong. It is 45% of Bush voters that believe in creationism, so no - it doesn’t surprise me that Bush has a 30% approval rating. Although I’m still trying to understand how 24% of Kerry’s voters also want creationism taught in schools.\* [/QUOTE] Oh no, it’s not just Bush voters. If only it were that simple. [Scary](http://www.pollingreport.com/science.htm) [polls](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml) [here](http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm) I’m guessing there’s a substantial overlap between these people and the some 45%ish who think Jesus is coming out of the clouds in their lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/19 "2007-05-30T07:15:34Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] Here’s a little fantasy: the lying, intelligence-insulting sack of shit currently resting his frat-boy ass behind the desk in the Oval Office is forced to come on the SDMB and defend his positions logically. If he retreats behind jingoistic talking points, he’ll have to give us a cogent explanation of what exactly they mean in the real world. [/QUOTE] I like your plan, but where you say, “have to give us a cogent explanation of what exactly they mean in the real world,” can we substitute, “will receive painful electrical shocks to his genitals?” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776/20 "2007-05-30T19:27:15Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] I like your plan, but where you say, “have to give us a cogent explanation of what exactly they mean in the real world,” can we substitute, “will receive painful electrical shocks to his genitals?” [/QUOTE] Nah, because unlike Bush, we don’t think there’s anything ‘quaint’ about the Geneva Convention. 🙂 OTOH, I wouldn’t be averse to locking him and Cheney in separate cells at Spandau Prison, after their conviction for war crimes at The Hague. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-through-the-looking-glass/405776.md?page=2)