# George W. Bush's Divine Mission **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658 "2003-06-26T23:49:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/21 "2003-06-27T12:29:37Z")
Okay, I’ll bite. HOW, exactly, does invading Iraq affect the Israel/Palestine thing? I find it difficult to believe anyone is going to behave any differently as a result of this. Except Saddam Hussein, of course. Before the war, I believed there was still a chance he would use chemical weapons on someone. Now, I believe he will not. …and I’d like to think that if God had a divine mission for George W. Bush, that He would have given Bush a somewhat better margin of victory in the last election… ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/22 "2003-06-27T12:41:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wang-Ka \* > …and I’d like to think that if God had a divine mission for George W. Bush, that He would have given Bush a somewhat better margin of victory in the last election… No, no that is exactly how YHW would approach the matter. He loves placing obstacles in front of his chosen ones. Character building, He calls it. Bloody sadist, _I_ say… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/23 "2003-06-27T12:53:19Z")
Bush also refered to the effort against terrorism as “our crusade”, which angered most Arabs but was still only a figure of speech to him. I think he or his speech writers find things in Bartlett’s that sound good and don’t consider the implications. On th eother hand, perhaps this stuff comes from “The Thousand Points of Light Quote Book”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/24 "2003-06-27T13:01:32Z")
Not to pour cold water on our latest festival of Bush-bashing, but I am going to have to ask for an actual quote of what Bush said (if anything). I am sorry to say that I am not willing to take the word of the Daily Telegraph that the allegation is in accurate context. Unless the board would like to argue that (assuming His existence in some way roughly analogous to the Jewish/Christian/Islamic understanding of Him) God does **not** want peace in the Middle East, or that God does **not** want the US President and Israel’s main ally involved in trying to bring this about. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/25 "2003-06-27T13:28:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Okay, I’ll bite. HOW, exactly, does invading Iraq affect the Israel/Palestine thing? I find it difficult to believe anyone is going to behave any differently as a result of this. Er, I hesitate to answer this because I don’t subscribe to the wisdom of this policy, but the basic theory is on sound underpinnings: The US, by invading Iraq, has placed a huge, well equipped army next door to the Mid-East’s biggest supporter of anti-Israel organizations, and has demonstrated a willingness to ignore sovereignty and international opinion to accomplish political goals. It is the threat to Syria, backed up by that demonstrated willingness, combined with the now quite public renewed commitment to a strong hand in _our ally Israel’s conflict_ with the Palestinians that is now causing readjustments of approach among the PA and more radical resistance organizations. Whether this strategy will have long-term success in establishing peace is arguable. Whether it furthers the interests of justice is moot. Whether it’s effective in the short term is still unclear. However, it does have a certain logic behind it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/26 "2003-06-27T13:36:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xenophon41 \* > \*\* > Whether …long-term success in establishing peace… Whether it furthers the interests of justice is moot. Whether it’s effective in the short term is still unclear. \*\* Or whether it pisses them off. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/27 "2003-06-27T14:02:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xenophon41 \* > \*\*Er, I hesitate to answer this because I don’t subscribe to the wisdom of this policy, but the basic theory is on sound underpinnings: > > The US, by invading Iraq, has placed a huge, well equipped army next door to the Mid-East’s biggest supporter of anti-Israel organizations, and has demonstrated a willingness to ignore sovereignty and international opinion to accomplish political goals. \*\* And once he gains that third country he can turn his cards in for a new army piece. To be honest I think this devine strategy is unsound because it seems to forget the one factor that could blow this mess up into a bigger pile… the actual civilians. Sure Sadam’s statues were toples and there are kites flying in Afghanistan but what has been fixed in those countries? Does Afghanistan have a legitimate stable leadership do the Afghanis have security and freedom? Is Iraq any closer to democracy today than it was after the fall of Bhagdad? Is there any sign that anything is really being done to improve conditions other than training a few officers, fixing some infrastructure (mainly getting the oil flowing again) and clamping down on the population with the occupying military acting government? It honestly feels like they half planned their Middle East plan… sure they could take the nations militarily but they seem to have no real plan for the post war reality except the idea that if we bring freedom everything will be peachy! If this is a devine mission then God seems to be a little addled these days unless, he has something other than peace and stability in mind… (insert your own paranoid armaggedon fantasy here) What is next? Is Bush hoping to rebuild the Temple and get his ass raptured out of here? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/28 "2003-06-27T14:22:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kingpengvin \* > It honestly feels like they half planned their Middle East plan… sure they could take the nations militarily but they seem to have no real plan for the post war reality except the idea that if we bring freedom everything will be peachy! That’s the same impression I have. Only things don’t look peachy, things look more like pear-shaped. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/29 "2003-06-27T14:35:19Z")
Hunh. Just last night as I was getting into bed, God, told me GWB is the Antichrist. Heard Him clear as a bell. Who ya gonna believe? Oh, and **Brutus** , loved the “Trotskyite” remark. I’m weeping with laughter. ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/30 "2003-06-27T14:45:14Z")
Well, I for don’t have a problem with this quote. They way I see it, there are many things in my life that are a “divine mission”, that is to say, that God has chosen me to complete. Raising my children for instance, being a good husband, being a good son, and so on. That the president, assuming the quote is accurate, sees it a his mission to try and bring peace to a troubled region seems like a good thing to me. You may now pile on. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/31 "2003-06-27T14:59:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*…Unless the board would like to argue that (assuming His existence in some way roughly analogous to the Jewish/Christian/Islamic understanding of Him) God does **not** want peace in the Middle East, or that God does **not** want the US President and Israel’s main ally involved in trying to bring this about. > > Regards, > Shodan \*\* Respectfully, I think that you are missing the point here. No one is arguing that god (assuming the existence of such a being) does not want peace in the Middle East. Rather, the anxiety here has to do with the perceived danger in having someone with a fundamentalist Christian belief system in a position of this much power and influence. Particularly troubling is the thought of someone that actually believes revelations and that we are somehow in the last days running the show. I guess that my take on things is that the president should be a secular power, and as such should be focused on making things better in the physical world. When this seems to not be the focus of a particular leader, a lot of folks (myself included) start to get rather worried. In the end, this is not about Bush (although I am sure that the way that I feel about him is not a secret). Rather, this is about what the proper roll is for a world leader. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/32 "2003-06-27T15:15:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bayonet1976 \* > \*\* God has chosen me to complete. being a good son, and so on. > \*\* Does that imply that S/He chose someone to be a _bad_ son? ---
**Author:** ![Pabitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Pabitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pabitel)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/33 "2003-06-27T15:40:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bayonet1976 \* > \*\*That the president, assuming the quote is accurate, sees it a his mission to try and bring peace to a troubled region seems like a good thing to me. \*\* You seem to at least partially miss the point. The fact that the person currently sitting in the white house thinks he is on a religious crusade frankly scares the hell out of me. I don’t think the world needs a religious fanatic of any stripe with his finger on the button. But hey that’s just me. The immediate problem with this is rather more mundane though. The whole situation in the Middle East is so tied up in religion that it really can’t be seperated from what else is going on there. So given that do you think it would generally be a good thing or a bad thing to go into this charged atmosphere and tell a Muslem leader that your Christian God told you to make peace between him and his Jewish enemies? Hmmmm? Regardless what GWB’s personal beleifs are he has no business spouting this type of nonsense in the middle of delecate international negotiations with members of another faith. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/34 "2003-06-27T15:40:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > **Not to pour cold water on our latest festival of Bush-bashing, but I am going to have to ask for an actual quote of what Bush said (if anything). I am sorry to say that I am not willing to take the word of the Daily Telegraph that the allegation is in accurate context.** I concur. I wouldn’t be surprised if he said it, but couldn’t find any corraboration when I Googled it yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/35 "2003-06-27T15:45:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > **Unless the board would like to argue that (assuming His existence in some way roughly analogous to the Jewish/Christian/Islamic understanding of Him) God does not want peace in the Middle East, or that God does not want the US President and Israel’s main ally involved in trying to bring this about.** If God wants peace in the Middle East, he sure is taking his sweet-ass time establishing this peace. Like 5000 years of sweet-ass time. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/36 "2003-06-27T15:49:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\*I concur. I wouldn’t be surprised if he said it, but couldn’t find any corraboration when I Googled it yesterday. \*\* You guys may find [this](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2921345.stm) article interesting. It does not speak to the specific incident of the OP (you will note that the article is from early June) but does make clear that the OP is at least very plausible. Best I could find off the cuff. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/37 "2003-06-27T15:51:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by quixotic78 \* > \*\*If God wants peace in the Middle East, he sure is taking his sweet-ass time establishing this peace. > > Like 5000 years of sweet-ass time. \*\* Dude, relax. We see through the mirror but darkly and there is a mountain somewhere and a bird stops bye every thousand years to sharpen it’s beak, and by the time the mountain is worn down to dust eternity will have just started. Or something. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/38 "2003-06-27T16:00:46Z")
It should also be noted that that the Telegraph is not a paper that would normally publish “anti Bush/US” stories. I also think that bring religion into a situation which is overloaded with religious bullshit isn’t a very good thing. A divine mission! Do me a favour. The Blues Brothers I can live with but not the POTUS. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/39 "2003-06-27T16:28:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Binarydrone \* > \*\*You guys may find http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2921345.stm] this article interesting. It does not speak to the specific incident of the OP (you will note that the article is from early June) but does make clear that the OP is at least very plausible. Best I could find off the cuff. \*\* Yeah, I read that article a while ago. Like I said, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the quote in the OP were true. I’d still prefer confirmation before taking W to task over it. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658/40 "2003-06-27T16:59:14Z")
I looked for the actual quote myself. Apparently, GWB made some sort of a comment along these lines in April this year that upset the [German President Johannes Rau](http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_2003_04_2_german_president.shtml), but the Telegraph article refers to incidents sometime this June. > [@](#): > > The German President, Johannes Rau, who is a leading figure in the Rheinland Evangelical Church and the son of a revivalist preacher, has criticised George Bush for claiming a _“divine mission”_. > He told the interviewer that there was no passage in the Bible that had ever called for crusades. > Mr. Bush’s views were not binding on Christians, he said, contrasting the U.S. leader’s remarks to the stance of the Pope There’s evidence that GWB said it. I’d really love to have the actual quote in context though. “Divine” didn’t return relevant hits @ [whitehouse.gov](http://whitehouse.gov). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-w-bushs-divine-mission/184658.md?page=3)