George Washington was Englands greatest military foe. I don't get it

All true, but the set piece battles did not determine the outcome of the war, which is where the European comparison breaks down. In a traditional European war of that time you would have several major battles and then one side would probably start grumbling about peace. Then you’d capture a few major strategic points and the peace talks would get more serious, and the war might even end at that point. One side wins a few more big battles and captures a few more places of strategic interest and then typically the losing side would sue for peace and they’d work out some deal where the victor got some portion of what he already held. That was typically how it happened because the victor at this point was happy to keep a few provinces and give a few back to the defeated party in exchange for not having to fight for several more years to totally defeat the other party. Plus, when we’re talking about major power conflicts the real prospect of a total defeat was not high, and all the European great powers were extremely protective of the balance of power and would not allow another great power to lose so decisively as to upend that power structure.

In the colonies the British had three serious problems. Because of the position of King George in reference to the aims of the war, the British had to fight for much harder objectives than would have been typical of a European conflict in this time period. Namely, since the King saw the colonies as British provinces in insurrection he was not willing to sue for peace or parley some negotiated settlement, instead he demanded absolute conquest and submission.

The second serious problem was the colonies had extremely decentralized political leadership, such that even if the British had been doing better than they already were, it would be difficult to even arrange a true surrender of the colonies in one fell swoop. You’d have to get all thirteen to agree to surrender, and in reality that would have probably been a colony-by-colony affair, and unlikely to happen easily. Note that even the colonies that had their capital cities occupied didn’t surrender or make a separate peace with the British.

The third serious problem was how geography combined with the above factors acted as a “difficulty multiplier” in the British being able to do what was necessary to win the war. Waging war across the Atlantic Ocean is no small feat even in the year 2012 (see talk of whether or not the United Kingdom, easily one of the top 5 most powerful military forces on the planet and probably top 3, could recapture an island in the South Atlantic from a weak South American country), in the 18th century waging war across the Atlantic was massively difficult.

In the 18th century attrition rates were a lot higher than in the modern era, from ordinary camp diseases, from battlefield wounds that become fatal due to lack of antibiotics, and just to generally less discipline leading to more desertions and the like. Even though the British typically fared better in direct confrontations, in reality they didn’t ever do well enough to overcome the natural disadvantages. Every soldier lost to the British through enemy fire, infection/disease, desertion or etc had to painfully replaced from over the Atlantic Ocean. Some paltry number of Loyalists were raised to support the British, but their numbers were never enough to remove the real need of the British to continually resupply and reinforce across the Atlantic. The replacement cost of one casualty to the British was very high, the replacement cost to the colonists was much lower.

So just the distance involved made the geographical realities very much against the British. However, another large geographical factor was just the sheer size of the American theater. It was vast, sparsely populated, and most of the colonists were more or less self-sufficient at least when it came to staple goods. It was also not a highly urbanized 2.5m people, you could capture all the major cities on the Atlantic seaboard, but some 90% of the population did not live in the cities and more importantly weren’t all that highly dependent on the cities for survival.

The realities of European war rewarded risk taking and aggression, in the British predicament in the colonies even a rewarded risk–one in which you win the field, the ultimate costs of that victory probably actually outweighed any gain from actually winning the day. That was almost never the case in European wars of this time, capturing strategic objectives and winning the battles on the field were of paramount importance. Such objectives would expose the enemy’s most important holdings, their capitals and et cetera. Winning a battle in the field against the colonists wasn’t nearly as decisive, what they really needed to do was crush the armies themselves, so that they could no longer operate in the field. Unfortunately for them, they were never able to do this.

None of this, of course, has anything to do with the claim that Washington

That Britain was attempting to suppress a rebellion by decentralized colonies on the far side of an ocean while its near neighbors, France, Netherlands, and Spain, were threatening it with a much closer war and many of its own citizens frequently favored the rebellious colonies is certainly true. None of those situations, however, were directly due to Washington’s strategic planning as a general.

The rebels did fight according to the “British rules,” winning or losing various battles according to how well they fought. The overall war was lost by the British due to the global expansion of the war, the increase of the war debt, the tepid desire of the British people to hold the colonies, (not sharing the views of George III and Lord North), and other factors, but Washington’s battlefield tactics only played a role to the extent that he could beat British generals at their own game.

The article does not it clear how the original question was actually phrased, but if Washington and Collins are the first and second choices, it must surely have been phrased in such a way as to exclude all those who did not ultimately beat the British. (The article does make it clear that anyone before the 17th century was also excluded, and if the question was limited to threats to Britain, as seems to be the case, that would also exclude any Scots warring against the English.)

Certainly others, Napoleon and Hitler being the most obvious, were much greater threats to Britain during the relevant time period, and consequently called forth much more serious (and successful) efforts to defeat them. Indeed, Washington posed no real threat to the British homeland at all, and Collins not that much. That, indeed, has a lot to do with how they were able to win.

Well that’s what seems clear to me. You pick your greatest foe from the list of guys who won.

So the bedbug that bites you is a greater foe than the tiger you manage to kill just before he eats you?:dubious:

As much as I love George Washington I cannot count him among the greatest foes Great Britain has ever faced. It’s important to note that the American Colonies went up against Great Britain and not little old England. It might seem a bit pedantic, but the Scottish soldiers serving in the British army certainly weren’t English. Truthfully, so far as major world events go, the French Revolution was far more important than the American Revolution.

The is it, exactly. It has very little really, to do with Washington as a military commander or leader. England is looking back like the old boxer and thinking, “I’d still be on TOP, if it wasn’t for that punk as bitch Washington.”

Imagine if they’d been able to keep both the US and Canada in their back pocket, Interesting question as to whether and for how long they might have fought it out with France and Spain for the whole continent. But if England could have incorporated pretty much the whole North American continent, she might night be riling the world today.

Punk ass bitch!

Except Napoleon and Ataturk were mentioned as runners up.

Hitler was explicitly mentioned as being disqualified, as he never led an army in the field.

Will any generals qualify in the future? Seems to me that these days, the battles are managed half a world away and the leaders actually in the field are just middlemen.

“leading an army in the field” doesn’t mean shit as far as Napolean is concerned - it just means it was before wireless radios. The little feller wasn’t exactly charging up hills leading the Old Guard, was he.

George Washington - LOL.

Sorry for the hijack, but my searches are coming up empty.

I know it must have been discussed, so does anyone have a link to a thread where dopers discuss a possible wining strategy for the British?

Was there any hope for them ever holding on to the colonies?

Google searches also turn up a mass of “what if the British had won”, but I couldn’t find a discussion of a British winning strategy. Please start such a thread!

Note I never refuted the central thrust, Washington certainly fought in his battles as a traditional European commander. It was not me who said any different. However your extended analysis still sort of misses the “big picture.”

Washington fought as a European tactically, but he didn’t fight as a European strategically. Kings would have recalled a commander like Washington–because he very rarely was willing to risk aggressive military action. If you read the writings of any of the really good 18th century generals (think Frederick the Great for starters) aggression is highly prized, timid commanders are disliked and would not keep their commands for long.

Washington would have been considered relatively timid by European standards. I can think of a few instances in which Washington displayed a lot of aggression, but by and large he was happy to just “stay in the field” and engage in relatively limited scale war with the British. That may be because Washington, after early bruises, came to fear direct confrontation with the British and avoided it unnecessarily (that isn’t my view) or it could be that he wisely saw it was a lot more important that he keep his army in the field than he risk big defeats to protect British-defined strategic objectives (which actually were of minimal strategic importance.)

The major battles in the American Revolution were traditional 18th century European battles and I’m in 100% agreement with you on that. However the strategic situation was very different, and a strategist in the European mold would have most likely lost it for the colonists because they would have favored risky direct actions with the British to defend strategic objectives and would have resulted in the Colonists losing their major standing armies.

Note that what you’d learn if you studied war in school (and I have) is Washington was employing a Fabian strategy which was not all that typical in the 18th century, although it was used occasionally from 1400-1800 (and against Napoleon by Russia later on) and it was often highly successful against the more territory-capture / aggressive action-centric European style of waging wars.

Not that those strategies were inferior in Europe, Frederick the Great was no slouch, probably the best commander of his age (if you put him and Napoleon in different ages, and I do) and in the contexts of the vast majority of traditional European wars aggressive action was the best way to defeat the enemy.

Leading in the field means just that you are in command of an army in the field and you yourself are also in the field. Even in the days of the Romans the Patrician commanders would often watch the battles and signal from the hillside. Guys like Caesar or earlier Alexander the Great who fought on the front lines to inspire their men were the exception, not the rule.

Napoleon didn’t fight in the front lines, nor should he have. There was only one Napoleon, there were 800,000+ French infantry and probably a hundreds of thousand able bodied Frenchman who could be called up to replace them. A single bullet or bayonet to Napoleon and their war was done.

However, in at least a few battles I’m aware of Napoleon engaged the enemy directly. I believe he killed an enemy soldier from horseback with/a pistol, or at least I saw this re-enacted in a History channel documentary at one point. :smiley:

I have to say this is easily your worst attribute as a poster. You see something you don’t agree with and instead of actually debating it you just add this idiotic “- LOL” and restate the original point.

Interestingly enough Frederick’s own “Maximus” ( and he so dubbed him, sarcastically ), the fatally flawed but highly skilled Leopold-Joseph von Daun, repeatedly handed Frederick his ass ;). Daun got the better of Frederick in virtually every encounter, most of which weren’t actual battles, as Fred had to repeatedly back down in the face of Daun’s skillful defensive deployments.

But it was nonetheless Daun’s lack of aggression among other faults, that probably prevented him from actually crushing Freddy for good.

England is kissing Washington’s ass now because it’s gonna want something from us next month, maybe to blow some shit up or invade somebody, “out of respect for General Washington.”

Where is this coming from?

The whole issue was one of private individuals voting on a topic of interest to them, (and, apparently, paying for the privilege).

There is no connection between the poll that prompted this thread and the British, (much less “English”), government.

Oh, man… it was a joke.

Then again, maybe there’s a backdoor deal to vote for Churchill for something, like America’s Best Pal Ever!

I understand that it was an attempt at humor. This was the second attempt in this thread to try to be funny by posting mildly dismissive nonsense against Brits or English that had nothing to do with the topic. However, non sequiturs are really not all that funny on their own.