# George Will says vote Dem in November **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 23, 2018, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619 "2018-06-23T14:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/81 "2018-06-25T17:31:31Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Calling supporters of racism racist is fair game. If you don’t want your feelings hurt stop supporting racism. It’s up to us to change minds. And they will, the moment we elect an openly racist Democrat to the presidency. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/82 "2018-06-25T17:31:56Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t understand what the problem is here. The assertion is that the white men who supported Trump did it from racist and authoritarian impulses. This is not a brush that touches white men who didn’t vote for Trump. My concern is that there is a difference between saying most protofascists are whites, or men, or christians. So that means all men, or all whites, or all christians are protofascists. I don’t want the left to become a place where christians, men, whites, baby boomers, the rich, etc do not feel welcome. As long as they share liberal values, they are welcome on the team. We need as much human capital, financial capital and voters as possible to defend our country from the protofascists. Most protofascists are white, but not all whites are protofascist. Most plutocrats are rich, but not all rich are plutocrats. There is a difference. > [@eschereal](#): > > I have resolved the conflict for myself. Being blond-haired, blue-eyed of North Sea ancestry, and seeing this vileness, I have concluded that “white” is not any kind of ethnicity, it is an ideology. Carson, Steele, Keyes, those guys are whiter than me. I reject whiteness. Yeah, I agree. Whitness is more a philosophy that says something like > [@](#): > > Being white, being christian, being male, being a native born American, being heterosexual provide certain privileges and dignities that people who do not possess these traits do not get. I will abandon every moral and principle that any sane, rational, decent person subscribes to to defend my privileges as someone who possesses these traits. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/83 "2018-06-25T18:04:05Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Every time I see someone claiming that the Democrats have gone “hard left” I picture a man standing in a westbound speedboat saying “Look how fast the shore is moving to the east!”. The Democrats have been drifting gently rightwards for decades; they’re only moving to the left relative to the Republicans who having been moving rightward at near-light speed since the Reagan era. The Democrats have been drifting right-ward on some economic issues but Trump supporters’ understanding of economics is kindergarten-level anyway. On social issues that the rednecks of Flyoverland care about — abortion, gun control, gay rights — Democrats are pulling hard, and alienating many American voters. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/84 "2018-06-25T18:35:26Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Conservatives are starting to realize that the Republican party is not advocating conservative principles anymore, but racist ones. The GOP only advances conservative causes by happenstance now. Conservative principles like family values, low public debt, low taxes, and free trade are routinely ignored. When have conservatives given any more than lip service to family values and low public debt? ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/85 "2018-06-25T18:59:24Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > When have conservatives given any more than lip service to family values … ? And what the hell does “family values” even mean? To quote the old reposte: What family? Whose values? It used to mean: [ol] [li]We oppose abortion[/li][li]Marriage is one man + one woman[/li][li]Only people in marriages we approve should have kids[/li][li]Drugs are evil and users should locked up[/li][/ol] Conservatives have lost or are losing 2-4. Does lingering fear over these losses drive people to support anyone who still espouses them, no matter how odious they are in all other respects? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/86 "2018-06-25T19:03:03Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The Democrats have been drifting right-ward on some economic issues but Trump supporters’ understanding of economics is kindergarten-level anyway. > > On social issues that the rednecks of Flyoverland care about — abortion, gun control, gay rights — Democrats are pulling hard, and alienating many American voters. Hillary Clinton’s economic policies did not seem much different than what her husband Bill ran on in 1992. The only economic issue where the democrats have moved to the left is health care. Single payer is much more popular now. But a lot of that is just lip service to placate progressives, not actual legislative agendas. The rednecks in flyover will vote for whatever party lets them mistreat minorities anyway. They are a lost cause. Abortion, gun control and gay rights are just proxies for mistreating out groups. Abortion is about mistreating women and taking away their rights. [Resistance to] Gun control is about angry white men who feel threatened by dangerous minorities, a democratic government and globalization Gay rights is about using religion to demonize other people. Those people aren’t democrats. Never will be. They are a lost cause, better to focus on increasing turnout among our base and on winning over swing voters. ---
**Author:** ![Huey\_Freeman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/huey_freeman/32/251_2.png) [@Huey\_Freeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huey_Freeman)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/87 "2018-06-25T19:03:33Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I have resolved the conflict for myself. Being blond-haired, blue-eyed of North Sea ancestry, and seeing this vileness, I have concluded that “white” is not any kind of ethnicity, it is an ideology. Carson, Steele, Keyes, those guys are whiter than me. I reject whiteness. Incredible. I can’t believe a white person gets it. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/88 "2018-06-25T19:14:45Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Abortion is about mistreating women and taking away their rights. > [Resistance to] Gun control is about angry white men who feel threatened by dangerous minorities, a democratic government and globalization. Come on – not everything is a code for hatred. The people I know who oppose legal abortion do so because they believe they’re protecting vulnerable human lives. They don’t hate women – they simply believe the fetus’ rights are more important. The people I know who oppose gun control simply believe they have a constitutional right to own the weapons they choose. They’re by no means all angry, white, male or racist. I can disagree with these folks without attributing their views to hatred. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/89 "2018-06-25T19:15:18Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The Democrats have been drifting right-ward on some economic issues but Trump supporters’ understanding of economics is kindergarten-level anyway. > > On social issues that the rednecks of Flyoverland care about — abortion, gun control, gay rights — Democrats are pulling hard, and alienating many American voters. They have been for minorities and women for a long time. They accepted gay and trans people before I was born. They’ve pushed political correctness as long, too. They were against wars before. They’ve been pushing for Christianity to lose its favored place in society since the 1960s. We have been for drug legalization for decades. I honestly struggle to think of anything where Democrats are actually further left. Maybe on health care? But that’s really just an extension of the New Deal ideas. Back then is basically when we were leaning the most left, before the reactionary right fought back. We’ve made some more progress on these issues, sure. But that’s not “moving left.” That’s achieving goals. What I’ve seen is mostly a loss of messaging, of reframing the old progressive values as SJWs and such. Of demonizing feminism. That’s society being pulled rightward. ---
**Author:** ![Huey\_Freeman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/huey_freeman/32/251_2.png) [@Huey\_Freeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huey_Freeman)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/90 "2018-06-25T19:15:53Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I struggle with this too. > > Trump won 57% of white votes in 2016. Which means 43% of whites voted for someone else, of whom the vast majority (37%) voted for Clinton. > > I’m not saying Trump didn’t win due to racism. He did. But if you pick a random sampling of 10 white voters, about 4 of them didn’t vote for Trump. Most of those 4 voted for Hillary. The other 6 are Trump voters. > > I’m a white male. We went 62-31 for Trump. Does that make me ashamed? Yes, a bit and the election of Trump really cemented that we need a more multicultural leadership because us white men aren’t making very good decisions recently. But I am in that 31%. Lots of white men are in that 31%. Pick 1000 white men at random who voted and almost 400 voted for someone other than Trump. > > Its something I struggle with too. How can you be honest about the role racial (and gender) resentment plays in our politics without demonizing entire groups of people? Yes, whites (especially older white men) are the root cause of our march towards fascism. But a lot of older white men are decent people too. White men like myself are the root cause of Trump’s appeal and the march towards fascism, but not all white men are bad. > > Its like a saying I heard. Not all Trump supporters are racist, but almost all racists are Trump supporters. Same thing. Not all whites are protofascist, but most protofascists are white. > > If you watch videos of neo-nazis and antifa getting into fights, almost all the neo-nazis are white. But the majority of antifa are white too. The struggle you may (or may not) be experiencing is idea that whiteness itself has become an existential threat to the country. ---
**Author:** ![Huey\_Freeman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/huey_freeman/32/251_2.png) [@Huey\_Freeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huey_Freeman)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/91 "2018-06-25T19:22:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Welcome to the Dope. We had a long discussion on the Coates article you refer to a little while ago here: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=835661](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=835661) That was a good read, thanks. I didn’t want to “zombify” or whatever it’s called the so I didn’t respond to it. It is interesting that none of the white folks in the rhead contested the facts the brother Coates lays out in his piece. When it comes to the facts, Coates is teflon. White folks instead decided to harp on the conclusions based on those facts. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > A friendly recommendation, feel free to take it or leave it – I think your arguments might gain more traction and positive response if you left out the extremely broad brush attacks, which IMO are entirely unnecessary to make your points. Just my opinion, anyway. Nah, I’m cool. Thanks, though. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/92 "2018-06-25T19:26:23Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Come on – not everything is a code for hatred. > > The people I know who oppose legal abortion do so because they believe they’re protecting vulnerable human lives. They don’t hate women – they simply believe the fetus’ rights are more important. > > The people I know who oppose gun control simply believe they have a constitutional right to own the weapons they choose. They’re by no means all angry, white, male or racist. > > I can disagree with these folks without attributing their views to hatred. You are making the mistake of believing the rhetoric. I grew up in those same evangelical, pro-life churches. I believed at the time it was about defending children and something God commanded. But I now can’t help but notice how they shamed all the teen mothers. How badly I myself thought of them. If they were doing the right thing, why were they so shamed? No, the abortion issue is about superiority. I looked into the history, and it was not a big issue before the 1970s. It was grafted in. Only Catholics before then believe it, and most protestant churches rejected anything Catholic not directly in the Bible. There were pro-abortion Baptist churches back then. As for guns: I thought that until the arguments against some very reasonable regulations that were suggested after the mass shootings. And how quickly the pro-gun people started attacking students like Hogg who wanted changes. It very clearly was about hate. When the only Republican value at this point is “Must hate liberals,” seeing as they have nothing else in common, you can’t really remove hate from anything. The reason I decided to call myself a liberal is that I realized how full of hatred and sin (from a Christian perspective) the right wing of this country actually is. I can’t name a single right wing value that isn’t based on hatred anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Huey\_Freeman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/huey_freeman/32/251_2.png) [@Huey\_Freeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huey_Freeman)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/93 "2018-06-25T19:27:04Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Welcome to the boards - please familiarize yourself with the rules of the forum, as well as the boards as a whole. Some forums have different rules and if so are described at the top of each. > > You seem to be very interested in introducing anti-white sentiment in your posts. And while that can be fine or not depending on context, this type of language above is not. Calling people “negro” in this context is not okay. > > [/moderating] Thanks for the welcome, but “negro, please” doesn’t mean what you think means. As for ‘anti-white sentiment’, I’m not even going to touch that. This is your house, so whatever you say, goes. I’ll stay off your lawn. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/94 "2018-06-25T19:39:38Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You are making the mistake of believing the rhetoric. No, I’m believing the actual people I know. Which is not to say that many people who oppose abortion and gun control don’t use hateful tactics and rhetoric. They do. People who shame unwed mothers – or troll kids who just watched their classmates get gunned down – are the scum of our society. But just because the scum expresses their opinions hatefully doesn’t mean others don’t hold those opinions for non-hateful reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/95 "2018-06-25T19:41:50Z")
> [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > That was a good read, thanks. I didn’t want to “zombify” or whatever it’s called the so I didn’t respond to it. It is interesting that none of the white folks in the rhead contested the facts the brother Coates lays out in his piece. When it comes to the facts, Coates is teflon. White folks instead decided to harp on the conclusions based on those facts. How do you know which of are “white folks”? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/96 "2018-06-25T19:51:27Z")
> [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > Incredible. I can’t believe a white person gets it. What did I just say? Just, knock it off. There is this thing in the US called “racism”. There is a spectrum of Americans, including many of Eurocentric ethnicity, who understand what it is. Then there is another group, which I believe to be somewhat smaller, who find the concept confusing. People in that group think they understand it, but then they start thumping on false equivalencies and “reverse-racism”. We know who those people are: the whites and the alt-white. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/97 "2018-06-25T19:51:39Z")
I was struck by it when the Sam L. Jackson said it in _Pulp Fiction_, IIRC, when he is talking to his gangster boss, who is reassuring him, and he says “Negro, why didn’t you say so!”. I went “Huh?” but then figured the dialogue was cleaned up for…somebody. So I asked somebody who had seen it in the theater, and she assured me that, yep, that’s it. Don’t use either word. Especially not the ugly stepsister. Not since I tried it out in front of my grandmother and was swiftly reminded me that fly-swatters have other uses besides pest control, like the correction of snotty little peckerwoods. Jesus loves them, that makes them equal, and the question was closed. I carefully considered her argument, and found it persuasive. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/98 "2018-06-25T20:04:51Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > or you could say they need to destroy the party to save it. Think of all the good The Purge does. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/99 "2018-06-25T20:11:24Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Come on – not everything is a code for hatred. > > The people I know who oppose legal abortion do so because they believe they’re protecting vulnerable human lives. They don’t hate women – they simply believe the fetus’ rights are more important. > > The people I know who oppose gun control simply believe they have a constitutional right to own the weapons they choose. They’re by no means all angry, white, male or racist. > > I can disagree with these folks without attributing their views to hatred. Not all of it, but a big part of it is. Being anti-abortion is tied to misogyny. Don’t you find it odd how so many of the loudest anti abortion voices are christian white men? And how despite them pretending they ‘care about the fetuses’, they have essentially no compassion for anyone else (non-whites, the poor, foreigners, animals, war refugees, etc)? Why have so much compassion for fetuses and virtually none for anyone else? > **[People Who Are Anti-Abortion Are Also Sexist, Worrying Study Finds](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/anti-abortion-people-could-also-be-sexist_n_7260342)** > > People Who Are Anti-Abortion Are Also Sexist, Worrying Study Finds > [@](#): > > “The results showed that as people increasingly endorsed hostile sexist views, they were statistically significantly more likely to hold anti-choice abortion attitudes,” Begun told The Huffington Post. “The same was true for people who endorse benevolent sexist views of women — and to the exact same degree as those who endorsed hostile sexist views.” > > Those who scored highly on the combined scale of benevolent and hostile sexism were even more likely to hold anti-abortion views, which Begun told HuffPost “[shows] that both types of [sexism] are dangerous to supporting a woman’s right to choose, and even more dangerous when both forms are endorsed.” A big part of the gun culture is less educated white men full of fear of minorities and globalization. > **[Fear Of Black People And Economic Anxiety Are Causing White Men To Stockpile...](https://www.good.is/articles/white-men-stockpile-guns)** > > 3% of the country now owns half of its guns. > [@](#): > > A study from Baylor found that the diminished position of white working class males has pushed them to buy firearms to regain a feeling of power and respect. “We found that white men who have experienced economic setbacks or worry about their economic futures are the group of owners most attached to their guns,” one of the Baylor sociologists said. “Those with high attachment felt that having a gun made them a better and more respected member of their communities.” > > Racism is also a huge reason why white males are stockpiling guns. A 2013 study found that fear of black people is related to both gun ownership and opposition to gun control among whites. The study also says that ethnic resentment against black people accounted for a 50% increase in the odds of having a gun at home. So is every single anti-abortion activist or pro second amendment person a hateful white christian? No. But there are a lot of hateful white christian protofascists in these groups. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619/100 "2018-06-25T20:25:00Z")
> [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > The struggle you may (or may not) be experiencing is idea that whiteness itself has become an existential threat to the country. This is just buying into alt-right rhetoric. They are the ones who want to claim racism as an inherent part of being white. They want to believe that all white people secretly are just as racist as they are, and we’re just being “politically correct” or “virtue signaling” when we claim otherwise. They are the ones who try to equate whiteness and white nationalism, turning it into an ethnicity. Since you don’t know me: I am white. I am none of the things you describe, and I am actually on the side fighting against the racism of the alt-right. I just got through defending BLM. I support kneeling for the anthem, because, if people want that to stop, they should fix the anti-black bias in policing. I am mocked as an “SJW.” I’ve been told on this very board that I care too much about racism. I not only argue for affirmative action, but for out and out preferential treatment for other races. I argue that the US needs hate speech laws. I actually argue that the lack of black people in the Republican party shows that it is racist. I disavow my birth town because they continue to do business with known KKK members. I could go on, but I hope you get the point. In other words, I am actively using my white privilege to help the cause. My whiteness, rather than being a threat, is an asset that allows me to fight against racism. Claiming whiteness is the problem is giving a win to the alt right. It is making this a white against minorities fight. But it’s not. It’s a fight between anti-racists and racists. What they want is to create divisions between minorities and their allies. Because they know that, together, they can’t win. I firmly believe that the recent surge, as horrible as it is, is just them getting desperate. I am your willing partner in this continuing fight against racism. Will you shun me? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-will-says-vote-dem-in-november/816619.md?page=6)