# George Zimmerman - In the news again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 31, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480 "2014-07-31T13:26:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/261 "2014-08-04T17:35:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How many white guys we got here? Of that group, how many white guys here don’t know that following a young black man around a gated community is likely to make him feel threatened? How many of us would continue to follow after being advised by authorities not to? I’m a Hispanic guy – what rules should I follow? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/262 "2014-08-04T17:41:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So was O.J. Simpson. Doesn’t mean he didn’t do it. Was O.J. of Peruvian/Latino descent? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/263 "2014-08-04T17:44:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. > > But you agree – I hope – that his moral culpability from the Sanford shooting rests on certain assumptions you’ve made, yes? Sure. > [@](#): > > In other words, you’d agree that if security footage were to surface after all this time showing that Zimmerman approached Martin carefully and non-threateningly, and Martin attacked him, that might decrease his culpability; likewise if footage were to reveal that Zimmerman shot Martin and then fabricated his injuries with the connivance of the witnesses, your view of his culpability would increase – am I right? Probably. > [@](#): > > So if you wouldn’t mind, when you say that Zimmerman deserves punishment for his moral culpability that has not been meted out, can you lay out what acts you are picturing Zimmerman actually did to earn that culpability? Sure, with the understanding that this is all speculative. And it’s with the assumption that Trayvon Martin was not some animalistic savage thug, but a scared kid, which I think is far more likely. Zimmerman (in his truck) saw Martin, and was suspicious. At some point, Martin notices this truck following him, and starts to run in fear. Zimmerman called the police department, and tells the operator he is following Martin. The operator says he shouldn’t do that. The call ends. Zimmerman has lost track of Martin, and gets out of his truck to look for him. He may or may not have a gun visible, but he has it with him. At some point, he finds Martin, or Martin finds him. At this point, all Martin knows (probably) is that a truck was following him, and now the guy in the truck is out looking for him, possibly with a gun. There is probably an exchange of words, and then a fight starts. Zimmerman is physically overwhelmed and, either with his gun already in his hand or able to draw it, he shoots and kills Martin. In this case, I believe Zimmerman acted recklessly and with disregard for life when (in the dark) he followed Martin, when he disregarded the operator’s instructions, and when he got out of his truck to look for Martin. At this point, he is at least partially responsible for any confrontation that occurs. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/264 "2014-08-04T17:45:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m a Hispanic guy – what rules should I follow? Don’t follow strange young men of any race around at night. You probably already knew this, though, right? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/265 "2014-08-04T17:52:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They may have been partly responsible. If so, he was (obviously) punished for it. Zimmerman was not, at least not by the law. Neither was Martin. At least not by the law. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/266 "2014-08-04T17:54:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Zimmerman (in his truck) saw Martin, and was suspicious. At some point, Martin notices this truck following him, and starts to run in fear. Zimmerman called the police department, and tells the operator he is following Martin. The operator says he shouldn’t do that. No, the operator didn’t say that. > [@](#): > > when he disregarded the operator’s instructions There were no “operator’s instructions” to disregard. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/267 "2014-08-04T17:54:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Neither was Martin. At least not by the law. Dead people are dead, so they are not able to be punished by the law. Or by anyone else, actually. They can’t be rewarded, either, at least not in this world. Read more about death [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/268 "2014-08-04T17:55:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, the operator didn’t say that. > There were no “operator’s instructions” to disregard. In common parlance, and language as it is commonly used in things like phone conversations, what the operator said (“we don’t need you to do that” after Zimmerman said he was following Martin) can reasonably be interpreted as instruction to discontinue following. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/269 "2014-08-04T17:56:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It seems likely because it would be very difficult to draw and fire a gun while fighting. Something to consider: if Zimmerman’s weapon was visible to Martin, and this motivated Martin to use force, wouldn’t his focus have been on trying to get the weapon away from Zimmerman? Zimmerman’s wounds were on his face and head. He had none on his hands. To me, that’s indicative that Zimmerman’s weapon was not visible at the time the confrontation began; if it were, Martin would have been clawing at and trying to control Zimmerman’s hands, not striking his head and ignoring the weapon, no? > [@](#): > > He disregarded the wise instructions of the NEN operator, then. He should have heeded those instructions. Not heeding them in this case was behaving in a reckless manner. I agree with your point, here, but to be fair, “Ok, we don’t need you to do that” is not an instruction, per se. > [@](#): > > Possibly. It may have been a tough case for the prosecution even with my idea. It might just be not that hard to get away with murder if it’s during a physical fight and there are no witnesses. Should it be any other way, though? People do attack other people, and it’d be profoundly unjust for a person who killed an attacker in self-defense to go to prison for it because they happened to be alone when it happened. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/270 "2014-08-04T17:57:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think he acted recklessly by disregarding the instructions of the operator There were no instructions of the operator to disregard. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/271 "2014-08-04T17:58:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In common parlance, and language as it is commonly used in things like phone conversations, what the operator said (“we don’t need you to do that” after Zimmerman said he was following Martin) can reasonably be interpreted as instruction to discontinue following. No, it cannot. It can reasonably be interpreted as telling Zimmerman that they don’t need him to do that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/272 "2014-08-04T17:59:44Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Something to consider: if Zimmerman’s weapon was visible to Martin, and this motivated Martin to use force, wouldn’t his focus have been on trying to get the weapon away from Zimmerman? Zimmerman’s wounds were on his face and head. He had none on his hands. To me, that’s indicative that Zimmerman’s weapon was not visible at the time the confrontation began; if it were, Martin would have been clawing at and trying to control Zimmerman’s hands, not striking his head and ignoring the weapon, no? Possibly. But the fact that Zimmerman was following in his truck, and then got out of his truck to look for him, might reasonably be enough on its own to inspire fear for life in Martin. > [@](#): > > I agree with your point, here, but to be fair, “Ok, we don’t need you to do that” is not an instruction, per se. Addressed in my last post – in context, I don’t see how this can be interpreted as anything but an instruction to stop following. > [@](#): > > Should it be any other way, though? People do attack other people, and it’d be profoundly unjust for a person who killed an attacker in self-defense to go to prison for it because they happened to be alone when it happened. But if they follow someone at night, and then disregard a police operator’s instructions to stop following, they are at least partially culpable for any resulting confrontation, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/273 "2014-08-04T18:00:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, it cannot. It can reasonably be interpreted as telling Zimmerman that they don’t need him to do that. No, it cannot. It can only reasonbly be interpreted as telling Zimmerman to stop following Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/274 "2014-08-04T18:01:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Addressed in my last post – in context, I don’t see how this can be interpreted as anything but an instruction to stop following. You really need to figure out what an “instruction” is. > [@](#): > > But if they follow someone at night, and then disregard a police operator’s instructions to stop following Except there were no instructions. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/275 "2014-08-04T18:02:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You really need to figure out what an “instruction” is. > Except there were no instructions. There was an instruction to stop following. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/276 "2014-08-04T18:02:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, it cannot. It can reasonbly be interpreted as telling Zimmerman to stop following Martin. No. Not “reasonably”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/277 "2014-08-04T18:02:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It seems likely because it would be very difficult to draw and fire a gun while fighting. This is evidence that he did not have his gun in his hand. It took him several seconds to draw and fire. Ergo, he did not have his gun in his hand, and your statement that it was “likely” is false. > [@](#): > > He disregarded the wise instructions of the NEN operator, then. He should have heeded those instructions. Not heeding them in this case was behaving in a reckless manner. [list=A][li]Recommendations of an NEN operator do not carry the force of law. [\*]As mentioned, the evidence shows that Zimmerman was not following Martin when Martin doubled back and attacked him.[/list][/li] > [@](#): > > Late at night, and if one has a gun visible (in hand or not), perhaps it does. Again, there is no evidence that Zimmerman had his gun in hand, and reason to believe that he did not. > [@](#): > > This is pretty weak evidence, considering Jeantel’s testimony (and that she was only present on the phone). As opposed to your allegations, for which there is no evidence at all. > [@](#): > > Not convincing, as above. Perhaps enough to shed reasonable doubt. > > If visible, it may have been enough to inspire reasonable fear. > > Not convincing at all. > > Doesn’t matter, if Martin reasonably felt fear for his life. You seem to be rejecting things for which there is evidence in favor of things for which there is no evidence at all. > [@](#): > > I oppose laws that outlaw stuff that doesn’t violate laws. For the record. Then don’t try to craft laws to punish people for acting legally. > [@](#): > > I think he acted recklessly by disregarding the instructions of the operator, and acting with reckless disregard for life is against the law. Disobeying the instructions of the NEN operator is not evidence of a reckless disregard for life. Also, Zimmerman was obeying the instructions of the NEN operator when Martin doubled back and attacked him. So even if you set up a law where NEN operators can order people to stop doing things that are legal, Zimmerman could not be punished because he was not doing the legal thing he was forbidden to do. > [@](#): > > Further, you’re entirely missing the point of my argument, which is that because Zimmerman is at least partially morally culpable for Martin’s death, an ideal law would find him legally culpable as well. I get your point, but it’s a stupid point. Your ideal law punishes people for acting legally, when somebody else acts illegally against them. You are walking in an unfamiilar neighborhood, and get lost. You stop a stranger to ask for directions. Are they morally justified in trying to kill you? If they try to kill you, and you kill them, should you be convicted and go to prison under a law that makes asking for directions retroactively illegal? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/278 "2014-08-04T18:03:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There was an instruction to stop following. You can say it a dozen times, still doesn’t make it true. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/279 "2014-08-04T18:03:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. Not “reasonably”. Yes. Yes “reasonably”. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/280 "2014-08-04T18:04:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes. Yes “reasonably”. Wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480.md?page=15)