# George Zimmerman - In the news again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 31, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480 "2014-07-31T13:26:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/661 "2015-01-13T00:48:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > We are discussing the situation when there is no other evidence. A conviction should not rest on potentially biased witness testimony, as such testimony by definition cannot convince beyond reasonable doubt. > > Stop bringing up different, irrelevant circumstances as though they matter. Or, show the evidence that speaks to Dunn’s state of mind not being reasonable fear of death or serious injury when he shot Davis. Prove that he did not see something that a reasonable person could have believed to be a shotgun. All the situations we’ve discussed include other evidence. There was other evidence in the Dunn case – his admission, the physical evidence (at the scene and the examination of the deceased), the witness testimony, and the testimony of Dunn’s girlfriend. Further, all witness testimony is “potentially biased”. You are arguing that all witness testimony should be ignored. My hypothetical with my wife also involved other evidence – the physical evidence at the scene, the admission from the accused that he pulled the trigger, etc. As to the proof that Dunn did not have reasonable fear for his life – the physical evidence at the scene and in the vehicle (including no shotgun and no object that could reasonably be confused for a shotgun), his girlfriend’s testimony in which she refutes his assertion that he mentioned the shotgun after the shooting, and the testimony of the witnesses that Davis had no object that could be confused for a shotgun, in addition to the fact that he was lying about this other claim of self-defense, collectively added up, to the jury, as sufficient proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not in reasonable fear for his life when he pulled the trigger. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/662 "2015-01-13T00:54:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As to the proof that Dunn did not have reasonable fear for his life – the physical evidence at the scene and in the vehicle (including no shotgun and no object that could reasonably be confused for a shotgun), his girlfriend’s testimony in which she refutes his assertion that he mentioned the shotgun after the shooting, and the testimony of the witnesses that Davis had no object that could be confused for a shotgun, in addition to the fact that he was lying about this other claim of self-defense, collectively added up, to the jury, as sufficient proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not in reasonable fear for his life when he pulled the trigger. This is all very compelling, but were you aware that Davis was black? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/663 "2015-01-13T00:57:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Further, all witness testimony is “potentially biased”. You are arguing that all witness testimony should be ignored. No, I’m not suggesting that. I’m stating that unsupported, potentially biased witness testimony cannot prove anything beyond reasonable doubt. I’ve stated that many times, and I have no idea what you find so incomprehensible about it, or why you keep claiming that I’m saying something different. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/664 "2015-01-13T00:58:47Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > This is all very compelling, but were you aware that Davis was black? Why are you so obsessed with the colour of people’s skin? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/665 "2015-01-13T01:02:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > > > This is all very compelling, but were you aware that Davis was black? > > Why are you so obsessed with the colour of people’s skin? And my question to you is: “why do you pretend not to be aware that you’re obsessed with the the colour of people’s skin?” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/666 "2015-01-13T01:04:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’ve stated that many times, and I have no idea what you find so incomprehensible about it, or why you keep claiming that I’m saying something different. Perhaps because you think Dunn shouldn’t have been convicted, despite the fact that the evidence against him didn’t consist solely of “potentially biased witness testimony”. I’m sorry, but I have to ask: the fact that you pretend you cannot figure this out on your own makes me think you are a troll or an idiot. I’m dying to know; which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/667 "2015-01-13T01:12:30Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Perhaps because you think Dunn shouldn’t have been convicted, despite the fact that the evidence against him didn’t consist solely of “potentially biased witness testimony”. No, I think he shouldn’t have been convicted because the evidence that he wasn’t in reasonable fear of death or serious injury _did_ consist solely of such testimony. Can you really not tell the difference between the facts of one case and the underlying philosophy of justice? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/668 "2015-01-13T01:27:04Z")
Ladies and gentlemen, _this_ is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca _lives_ on the planet Endor. Now think about it; _that does not make sense!_ If Chewbacca lives on Endor, can you be sure that Han shot first? You now have a reasonable doubt. Self defense, you must acquit! CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/669 "2015-01-13T01:29:30Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Ladies and gentlemen, _this_ is Chewbacca. > Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. > But Chewbacca _lives_ on the planet Endor. > Now think about it; _that does not make sense!_ > If Chewbacca lives on Endor, can you be sure that Han shot first? > You now have a reasonable doubt. > Self defense, you must acquit! > > CMC fnord! Still better than the prequels. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/670 "2015-01-13T01:33:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Still better than the prequels. The worst episode of _South Park_ is better than the prequels. (And that’s a reallllly low bar.) CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/671 "2015-01-13T02:17:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, I think he shouldn’t have been convicted because the evidence that he wasn’t in reasonable fear of death or serious injury _did_ consist solely of such testimony. No it didn’t. Stop being wrong. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/672 "2015-01-13T02:34:21Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, I think he shouldn’t have been convicted because the evidence that he wasn’t in reasonable fear of death or serious injury _did_ consist solely of such testimony. They didn’t testify as to whether he did or did not fear for his life, as no one has the ability to know with certainty what another person thinks or feels. They testified that the person he shot and killed had not threatened him, contrary to what Dunn claimed. The jury apparently believed their testimony, and concluded that Dunn was lying. That’s why he was convicted. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/673 "2015-01-13T02:42:02Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > They didn’t testify as to whether he did or did not fear for his life, as no one has the ability to know with certainty what another person thinks or feels. They testified that the person he shot and killed had not threatened him, contrary to what Dunn claimed. The jury apparently believed their testimony, and concluded that Dunn was lying. That’s why he was convicted. There was also physical evidence; there were no items in the car that could have been mistaken for a shotgun. There was also testimony from his girlfriend, who couldn’t be called a biased witness. **iiandyiiii** has carefully and repeatedly explained this to **Steophan** , who repeatedly and carefully ignores it. As I said, troll or idiot. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/674 "2015-01-13T03:42:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You’re an outright liar. I don’t _want_ anyone to get away with murder, but it’s necessary that some people do, in an imperfect world, to protect the rights of people to defend themselves, and to have a fair trial. Regardless of colour. Then you had no reason to be upset abut my psychopathic remarks about Zimmerman. It’s necessary for some people to be murdered in an imperfect world. We’ll just file it under “oh well shit happens” when it does. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/675 "2015-01-13T03:49:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It would be odd that I support self defence laws and Stand Your Ground, then, as the majority of people who benefit from those laws are black. Want a shock? I believe in the right to defend yourself. I do not and never have subscribed to any “duty to retreat”. I believed in “stand your ground”… but now I believe it is being abused to cover up murders. Why pull punches? However, I will NEVER simply write off a fatal shooting of any unarmed person - no matter how big and “scary looking”, without an investigation. ANY asshole can murder and then say “I was scared”. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/676 "2015-01-13T03:50:08Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > There was also physical evidence; there were no items in the car that could have been mistaken for a shotgun. There was also testimony from his girlfriend, who couldn’t be called a biased witness. > > **iiandyiiii** has carefully and repeatedly explained this to **Steophan** , who repeatedly and carefully ignores it. As I said, troll or idiot. Why not both? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/677 "2015-01-13T04:46:29Z")
Judge orders Zimmerman to give up all his firearms as a condition of his release on bond. > **[George Zimmerman 'Has Not Been Lucky With The Ladies': Lawyer](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/george-zimmerman-unlucky-with-ladies-domestic-violence_n_6456246?utm_hp_ref=tw)** > > George Zimmerman 'Has Not Been Lucky With The Ladies': Lawyer ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/678 "2015-01-13T12:54:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, I think he shouldn’t have been convicted because the evidence that he wasn’t in reasonable fear of death or serious injury _did_ consist solely of such testimony. > > Can you really not tell the difference between the facts of one case and the underlying philosophy of justice? No it didn’t. It consisted of the physical evidence, witness testimony, and the testimony of Dunn’s girlfriend. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/679 "2015-01-13T13:05:24Z")
**Steophan** , I’m repeating a question from before that you didn’t answer – what behavior from Davis causes you to call him a thug? What is the evidence for this behavior? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/680 "2015-01-13T13:17:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > **Steophan** , I’m repeating a question from before that you didn’t answer – what behavior from Davis causes you to call him a thug? What is the evidence for this behavior? You need to stop this habit of repeatedly asking questions that have been answered. Davis’ deliberate antisocial behaviour towards Dunn is a matter of record, not disputed by anyone. He either felt he had the right to ignore Dunn’s request to stop breaking the law in a way that negatively affected Dunn, thinking his desires were more important than anyone else’s, or he actively wanted to piss Dunn off. Yes, it was “only” loud music. So what? Note that the driver of the vehicle did comply with Dunn’s justified request. Note that (despite certain people’s implications in this thread) I’ve not referred to the driver, or any of the other passengers as thugs. Only the little shit who acted like one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480.md?page=35)