# George Zimmerman - In the news again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 31, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480 "2014-07-31T13:26:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/761 "2015-01-14T13:31:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > But, believe it or not, there are those that think someone should have to prove that they acted in self defence, not have the prosecution prove that they didn’t. In this instance I think it’s a case of the innocent-until-guilty principle running into difficult reality. The dead person can’t testify. Killers could claim self-defense every time and it would almost impossible to disprove their tale. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/762 "2015-01-14T13:32:45Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Also, try to stop being a racist. What has he said that was racist? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/763 "2015-01-14T13:37:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not accusing you of being racist. I think you’re unaware of the recent history of the use of the word “thug”. > > What I’m most interested in, and most critical of, is your insistence on using a term associated with personal violence – thug – to describe a non-violent, and non-criminal dead teenager. It’s not reasonable to use such a word for someone who, at worst, did something a bit obnoxious… if Davis is a “thug” for playing loud music, then most teenagers are thugs. > [@Steophan](#): > > If most teenagers, when asked as part of a group to turn down obnoxiously loud music, and after one of the group complies, deliberately turns it up again, then yes, most would be. This is why it is pointless to argue with you. You are using your own definitions for words. No debate is possible without a common language, and you are clearly making it up as you go along. I’m just going to declare victory and seek out someone who agrees words have meanings and are not subject to fanciful interpretations just to suit your viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/764 "2015-01-14T13:43:50Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In this instance I think it’s a case of the innocent-until-guilty principle running into difficult reality. The dead person can’t testify. Killers could claim self-defense every time and it would almost impossible to disprove their tale. I’d rather a few murderers getting away with it than victims of crime who were forced to defend themselves being criminalised. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/765 "2015-01-14T13:43:57Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > What has he said that was racist? There is a commonality to those people he describes as thugs who deserve to die and to those people who feel threatened and should never be convicted when they kill someone. Can you guess what it is? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/766 "2015-01-14T13:45:28Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > There is a commonality to those people he describes as thugs who deserve to die and to those people who feel threatened and should never be convicted when they kill someone. Can you guess what it is? The people that I’ve claimed deserve to die don’t exist. The people who feel threatened and should not be convicted do. Are those the commonalities you’re looking for? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/767 "2015-01-14T13:45:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’d rather a few murderers getting away with it than victims of crime who were forced to defend themselves being criminalised. But it wouldn’t be just a few, if it were this easy – people who wanted to kill would only have to expend a little effort to ensure that they shot someone in the front, that the only witnesses were friends of the deceased, and that it wasn’t on film. Just invite them and their friends to a party, and shoot him in the heart as he walks in the door – and claim he had a weapon. Only his friends were witnesses. It would become trivially easy to plan and execute a murder and get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/768 "2015-01-14T13:48:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The people that I’ve claimed deserve to die don’t exist. The people who feel threatened and should not be convicted do. Are those the commonalities you’re looking for? You [said](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17117916&postcount=207) that you have “no complaints” about Davis’s death. Do you really mean that? You have no complaints about a non-violent kid who was killed for being obnoxious? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/769 "2015-01-14T14:04:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But it wouldn’t be just a few, if it were this easy – people who wanted to kill would only have to expend a little effort to ensure that they shot someone in the front, that the only witnesses were friends of the deceased, and that it wasn’t on film. Just invite them and their friends to a party, and shoot him in the heart as he walks in the door – and claim he had a weapon. Only his friends were witnesses. > > It would become trivially easy to plan and execute a murder and get away with it. Erm, OK. I disagree with how easy it would be to control every single unpredictable factor, but that’s not really relevant. I actually doubt there’s vast numbers of people who would murder if only it was easier to get away with, but again that’s irrelevant. I don’t consider that an increase in the amount of murders is a valid criticism of my argument. Better for people to get away with murder than for victims of crime to be locked up for it. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You [said](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17117916&postcount=207) that you have “no complaints” about Davis’s death. > > Do you really mean that? You have no complaints about a non-violent kid who was killed for being obnoxious? No, at no point did I say I have no complaints about a non-violent kid being killed for being obnoxious. I said I have no complaints about someone being killed in self defence. I maintain that. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/770 "2015-01-14T14:09:55Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > There is a commonality to those people he describes as thugs who deserve to die and to those people who feel threatened and should never be convicted when they kill someone. Can you guess what it is? A very vigilant, forceful attitude towards crime and perceived threats. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/771 "2015-01-14T14:11:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Erm, OK. I disagree with how easy it would be to control every single unpredictable factor, but that’s not really relevant. > > I actually doubt there’s vast numbers of people who would murder if only it was easier to get away with, but again that’s irrelevant. > > I don’t consider that an increase in the amount of murders is a valid criticism of my argument. Better for people to get away with murder than for victims of crime to be locked up for it. I don’t think there’s “vast numbers of people” – but there are still plenty, I think. I think lots of people would go from fantasizing about murdering their boss/ex/cuckold/etc. to actually murdering them if it were this easy to get away with it. Suppose my “party scenario murder” happened – the killer shoots the deceased as soon as he walks in the door, in the chest, and the only witnesses are the deceased’s friends and family. After the shooting they all flee and call the police outside the house. The killer claims the deceased had a gun and was aiming it at him, and his lawyers suggest the victim’s friends picked up the gun and disposed of it as they fled. The witnesses all deny the deceased had a gun or did anything threatening. What should the jury do? > [@](#): > > No, at no point did I say I have no complaints about a non-violent kid being killed for being obnoxious. > > I said I have no complaints about someone being killed in self defence. I maintain that. You said you have no complaints about Davis’s death. No complaints that he’s dead – you didn’t say anything about self-defense. Either you’re _absolutely certain_ that Davis tried to kill Dunn and it was self-defense, or you have no complaints about a potentially non-self-defense shooting of a non-violent kid. Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/772 "2015-01-14T14:16:10Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > A very vigilant, forceful attitude towards crime and perceived threats. You must have found _Electric Company_ to be very challenging. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/773 "2015-01-14T14:48:03Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, the principle that people should be allowed to defend themselves _saves_ lives. Mostly, if the statistics I’ve read are true, black lives. And yet, despite your lies about me, I support that principle. Odd, that. Wait, people who disagree with you are opposed to the principle of self defense? Do we also hate kittens? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/774 "2015-01-14T14:55:14Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > What has he said that was racist? Innocent kid who gets brutally murdered = \*\*Steophan \*\*calls him a thug. Violent man who murders a kid, tries to kill several others, was abusive to his ex-wives, planned the contract killing of someone who upset him earlier, is sentenced to life in prison = \*\*Steophan \*\*thinks he was unjustly imprisoned. Guess the races of the people involved. Now do this with every discussion he’s ever been involved in on this board. Prior to being called out on it on this thread, Steophan had never discussed any black person on this board without calling him a thug. Prior to being called out on it in this thread, \*\*Steophan \*\*had never called a white person a thug. For a certain class of person “thug” is code for “nigger”. If you’re only calling black people thugs, you’re that class of person. See also “urban”. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/775 "2015-01-14T14:55:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think there’s “vast numbers of people” – but there are still plenty, I think. I think lots of people would go from fantasizing about murdering their boss/ex/cuckold/etc. to actually murdering them if it were this easy to get away with it. You opinion of humanity, and specifically its violent tendencies, appears to be even lower than mine. I’m surprised, if you believe there are that many potential murderers about, you don’t support stronger self defence laws. But, say you’re right. So what? People should have the right to protect themselves from all these potential murderers. > [@](#): > > Suppose my “party scenario murder” happened – the killer shoots the deceased as soon as he walks in the door, in the chest, and the only witnesses are the deceased’s friends and family. After the shooting they all flee and call the police outside the house. The killer claims the deceased had a gun and was aiming it at him, and his lawyers suggest the victim’s friends picked up the gun and disposed of it as they fled. The witnesses all deny the deceased had a gun or did anything threatening. > > What should the jury do? Did the deceased have a gun? Did someone dispose of it? It’s your hypothetical, and yet these are relevant details you don’t mention. And if not, how do you intend to prove it? > [@](#): > > Either you’re _absolutely certain_ that Davis tried to kill Dunn and it was self-defense, or you have no complaints about a potentially non-self-defense shooting of a non-violent kid. Which is it? Nonsense. I don’t need to be certain that Davis tried to kill Dunn to believe the killing was in self defence. Apart from anything else, you have a fundamentally flawed understanding of self defence. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/776 "2015-01-14T15:03:52Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Innocent kid who gets brutally murdered = \*\*Steophan \*\*calls him a thug. Liar. > [@](#): > > Violent man who murders a kid, tries to kill several others, was abusive to his ex-wives, planned the contract killing of someone who upset him earlier, is sentenced to life in prison = \*\*Steophan \*\*thinks he was unjustly imprisoned. Are you talking about Davis? I’ve repeatedly said he belongs in prison. > [@](#): > > Guess the races of the people involved. Or don’t, as it’s irrelevant. Why are you so obsessed with race? > [@](#): > > Prior to being called out on it on this thread, Steophan had never discussed any black person on this board without calling him a thug. Prior to being called out on it in this thread, \*\*Steophan \*\*had never called a white person a thug. Liar. To pick one black person who I’ve discussed without calling them a thug, Trayvon Martin’s girlfriend, who testified at Zimmerman’s trial. I also haven’t referred to Davis’ three companions as thugs. You’re an idiot, and anyone who chooses to believe your unsubstantiated claims is doubly idiotic. > [@](#): > > For a certain class of person “thug” is code for “nigger”. If you’re only calling black people thugs, you’re that class of person. See also “urban”. Neither “thug” nor “urban” refer to race. The first refers to behaviour, the second (in the sense you’re using it) to a culture. You are, I suspect deliberately, seeing racism where none exists, in an attempt to prevent criticism of violent, antisocial behaviour and damaging cultures. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/777 "2015-01-14T15:06:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You opinion of humanity, and specifically its violent tendencies, appears to be even lower than mine. I’m surprised, if you believe there are that many potential murderers about, you don’t support stronger self defence laws. I support strong self-defense laws – what you describe makes self-defense weaker, in my view. > [@](#): > > Did the deceased have a gun? Did someone dispose of it? It’s your hypothetical, and yet these are relevant details you don’t mention. All the witnesses say there was no gun. No gun is found (except the killer’s gun). The only claim of a gun in the victim’s hand comes from the killer. > [@](#): > > And if not, how do you intend to prove it? To prove there was no gun? Because no gun is found inside or anywhere near, and multiple witnesses say there was no gun. If this isn’t enough, then my party scenario makes murder _incredibly easy_ to get away with. > [@](#): > > Nonsense. I don’t need to be certain that Davis tried to kill Dunn to believe the killing was in self defence. No, but if you’re a human being with compassion, you’d need to be certain Davis tried to kill Dunn to have “no complaints” about Davis’s death. > [@](#): > > Apart from anything else, you have a fundamentally flawed understanding of self defence. No, I’m talking about your feelings about Davis’s death. Even if it was legally self-defense (and it wasn’t, according to the jury), unless you’re certain that Davis was actually trying to kill Dunn, I would think a person with a heart would be sad that a kid was killed who might not have done anything wrong other than playing loud music. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/778 "2015-01-14T15:17:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > > > Innocent kid who gets brutally murdered = \*\*Steophan \*\*calls him a thug. > > Liar. Serious question: Does your mental illness prevent you from remembering the words that have come out of your mouth? In that case I forgive this blatant falsehood. > [@Steophan](#): > > > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > > > For a certain class of person “thug” is code for “nigger”. If you’re only calling black people thugs, you’re that class of person. See also “urban”. > > Neither “thug” nor “urban” refer to race. The first refers to behaviour, the second (in the sense you’re using it) to a culture. This is just stupid. Stop being so stupid. > [@Steophan](#): > > To pick one black person who I’ve discussed without calling them a thug, Trayvon Martin’s girlfriend, who testified at Zimmerman’s trial. Congratulations, you found one. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/779 "2015-01-14T15:32:31Z")
If anyone is interested, when looking through \*\*Steophan’s \*\*old posts I found this gem: > [@Pitting the Zimmerman trial circus](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/234): > > > [@Pitting the Zimmerman trial circus](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/233): > > > > Until the first violent confrontation with police or private citizens. > > > > Perhaps he’ll take advantage of his celebrity status, get a new girlfriend, and then beat her up. > > I imagine he’s quite happy with his (unbeaten) wife. Hey everyone, let’s all trust \*\*Steophan’s \*\*judgment on things! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/780 "2015-01-14T15:50:33Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, the principle that people should be allowed to defend themselves _saves_ lives. Mostly, if the statistics I’ve read are true, black lives. And yet, despite your lies about me, I support that principle. Odd, that. “Texas A&M University researchers published a study in May 2012 that examined FBI homicide data …Holding other factors constant, it found passage of a Stand Your Ground law was associated with either a 7% or 9% increase in total homicides, depending on the statistical method used. It did not find any evidence that rates of burglary, robbery, and aggravated assault were affected by these laws” [[http://econweb.tamu.edu/mhoekstra/castle\_doctrine.pdf](http://econweb.tamu.edu/mhoekstra/castle_doctrine.pdf)"]Cite “The researchers found that when white shooters kill black victims, 34% of the resulting homicides are deemed justifiable, while only 3.3% of deaths are ruled justifiable when the shooter is black and the victim is white” [Cite](http://everytown.org/documents/2014/10/shoot-first.pdf) "Overall, SYG laws do not appear to reduce racial disparities and in important ways make them more pronounced. " [Cite](http://blog.metrotrends.org/2012/08/stand-ground-laws-worsen-racial-disparities/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480.md?page=40)