# George Zimmerman - In the news again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 31, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480 "2014-07-31T13:26:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 75
**Author:** ![LAZombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b38774/32.png) [@LAZombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LAZombie)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1481 "2020-02-26T00:53:42Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > rather than the adult who incorrectly profiled a **child as a thief** and shot him. Maybe not that night but… "When the school cop searched Martin’s backpack the next day looking for the graffiti marker, he reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver described as a “burglary tool,” the report said. According to the report, the 12 pieces of jewelry included silver wedding bands, earrings with diamonds and a watch. The investigator asked about the jewelry and “Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” the report said." > **[Trayvon Martin Suspended From School Three Times: Report](https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/trayvon-martin-suspended-from-school-three-times-report/1919381/)** > > Teen suspended for graffiti, empty marijuana baggie. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1482 "2020-02-26T01:04:42Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > Maybe not that night but… > > "When the school cop searched Martin’s backpack the next day looking for the graffiti marker, he reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver described as a “burglary tool,” the report said. > > According to the report, the 12 pieces of jewelry included silver wedding bands, earrings with diamonds and a watch. The investigator asked about the jewelry and “Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” the report said." > > [Trayvon Martin Suspended From School Three Times: Report – NBC 6 South Florida](https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/trayvon-martin-suspended-from-school-three-times-report/1919381/) Interesting, but where’s the part where it shows that the jewelry was stolen? And the evidence that Martin was the one that stole it? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1483 "2020-02-26T01:21:54Z")
Why not just claim that Zimmerman read Martin’s mind and saw _jewel thief_? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1484 "2020-02-26T01:24:25Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > "When the school cop searched Martin’s backpack the next day looking for the graffiti marker, he reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver described as a “burglary tool,” the report said. LOL. This is hilarious. Could you, or the writer of that article, or the school cop, explain for me the difference between a regular screwdriver and a “burglary tool” screwdriver? I need to know if my toolbox contains anything criminal. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1485 "2020-02-26T01:50:01Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > Maybe not that night but… He incorrectly profiled a child as a thief. You cannot argue with that because it is a a fact. Is this the kind of person you want to be? Someone who argues against facts with bullshit? Someone who lies to win internet points? Christ, try harder at life, this is pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1486 "2020-02-26T01:57:55Z")
Anything can be a fucking burglary tool if you put it in scare quotes. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1487 "2020-02-26T02:11:51Z")
I routinely smash down doors with my “penis”. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1488 "2020-02-26T02:22:47Z")
I meant “burglary tool” not a buggery tool ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1489 "2020-02-26T04:48:00Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > Maybe not that night but… > > "When the school cop searched Martin’s backpack the next day looking for the graffiti marker, he reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver described as a “burglary tool,” the report said. > > According to the report, the 12 pieces of jewelry included silver wedding bands, earrings with diamonds and a watch. The investigator asked about the jewelry and “Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” the report said." > > [Trayvon Martin Suspended From School Three Times: Report – NBC 6 South Florida](https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/trayvon-martin-suspended-from-school-three-times-report/1919381/) Oh, well, when you mention that bit it’s obvious that he should have hunted and killed without a trial. I mean…jewelry! ---
**Author:** ![DirkHardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@DirkHardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkHardly)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1490 "2020-02-26T10:56:28Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > [Photographs show that Zimmerman had a bloody nose and two lacerations to the back of his head — wounds that the prosecution has insisted are too minor to have come from a severe attack by Martin.](https://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-medical-examiner-20130702-story.html) And how did that argument work out for the prosecution? What was the final verdict again? Did you really think you were making some grand point by citing an argument that has already been considered and explicitly rejected. Also, and this is really important, the law does not require someone to have sustained serious injury (or death) before they can legally respond with force. A reasonable fear of the imminence of such an injury will suffice. And again, a reasonable fact-finder could (and did) conclude a person having the base of their skull repeatedly struck against concrete while being pinned to the ground could legally justify such a fear. > [@Skywatcher](#): > > Where, exactly, are they accusing anyone of a felony? They didn’t explicitly. But that doesn’t necessarily matter for defamation claims. Not making the alleged defamation explicitly is no more an absolute defense than not naming the subject. The test is basically, “How would an average person interpret the statement in question?” The complaint is online but the short version of the argument is that by mentioning Martin and characterizing his life as “stolen” or “that he should still be with us…” it implies that the person responsible for Martin’s death is somehow morally or legally blameworthy. When someone is morally or legally to blame for the death of another as the result of an intent to cause great bodily injury or death we call that criminal homicide, and it’s a felony. Zimmerman was acquitted in Martin’s death and as far as the law is concerned he is factually innocent of criminal responsibility in Martin’s death. Furthermore, mentioning racism, white-supremacy, and prejudice in the same context further implies Martin’s death was unlawful and that those were Zimmerman’s motivations rather than the finding of self-defense. And while the term “gun violence” can be fairly neutral, had they used it alone they would be on much stronger ground, by associating it with the above (racism, etc.) they are again making a damaging implication other than the legal finding of self-defense. Also, even if the per se defamation claim fails, if Zimmerman can establish that they were accusing him of “racism, etc.” did so with malice, and caused damage to his reputation, then he can still prevail. Normally such accusations can fall into the realm of “pure opinion” but since they ostensibly linked the accusations to a factual event, one where the facts where legally determined to be otherwise, then they may have actually made that defense much weaker if not completely unavailable. ---
**Author:** ![DirkHardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@DirkHardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkHardly)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1491 "2020-02-26T11:39:57Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > **DirkHardly** , you seem to be speaking from a position of privilege. > > If you are a black male of any age, or a female of any age or color, knowing that someone is following you is cause for concern and, yes, fear for your personal safety even if the follower doesn’t do anything physically threatening. This is especially true if it is after dark and there are no other people around. If there is any interaction, the fear level _will go up_. A lot. > > Zimmerman had a gun. Trayvon was unarmed. I don’t see how Trayvon (or anyone else in that situation) \*wouldn’t \*have a reasonable fear for his life. I certainly would have. As the saying goes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We only have Zimmerman’s word for how things went, and he has a series of excessively violent incidences in his life that he provoked. > > Lastly, whether Buttigieg and Warren were implying Zimmerman’s guilt or not, the fact remains that despite being declared not guilty _of a crime_, he is still directly responsible for Trayvon’s death. I do not see how stating this truth, even if it is only implied, can be defamatory (although I concede that IANAL and the law can get damned twisty). In your eagerness to give someone an insufferable lecture on their “privilege” did it ever occur to you that nothing I said had anything whatsoever to do with my own personal feelings? The law doesn’t care any more about my personal, subjective fears than it does Martin’s or Zimmerman’s because people’s subjective fears are frequently irrational. And there is no self-defense law or legal principle in any Western democracy I’m aware of that will justify the use of force as reasonable based merely on following someone or even confronting them to ask questions. Regardless of whether it is night and the race or gender of the person being followed/ confronted. Neither of those things can be reasonably interpreted as an imminent threat of violence. We also have no idea if Martin was aware Zimmerman was armed. And did you really just plead the whole “absence of evidence…” thing in a discussion about a legal case? Because that’s not at all how this works. If you are advocating for some other standard of fear needed to justify self-defense then you are second-guessing centuries of the accumulated legal traditions/wisdom of numerous countries around the world. If you are further arguing that the law should use a different fundamental standard for females or African-Americans than it does say, white males, then that seems like it would be pretty problematic and unworkable and is one of the stupidest things I’ve heard in a decent while. ---
**Author:** ![DirkHardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@DirkHardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkHardly)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1492 "2020-02-26T11:50:08Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’ll just note that Zimmerman’s attorney is none other than birther Larry Klayman, who is apparently also his attorney in his lawsuit against the family of Trayvon Martin and the prosecutors in his case. Klayman has been publically censured (and is currently appealling his suspension of 90 days) by the DC Bar. He’s held his own “grand jury” to indict Robert Mueller. He’s been reprimanded by the Florida state bar. The disciplinary committee of the DC Court has also recommended he be suspended for 33 months for attempting to have sex with one of his clients. > > He’s also has (unsuccessfully) sued Obama for being born in Kenya, Hillary Clinton for Benghazi, both of them for instigating a “Race war”, Robert Mueller, and others. He’s represented a slew of right wing idiots, including Jeremy Corsi, Joe Arpario, and Roy Moore. > > Klayman is a loser, unethical, a bad attorney, a failure and, a professional right wing headline chaser. I expect this lawsuit to go the way of most of his other lawsuits. And what exactly do Klayman’s actions or legal record have to do logically with this case? Are you saying the current claim is not cognizable or winnable? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1493 "2020-02-26T11:52:42Z")
> [@DirkHardly](#): > > And how did that argument work out for the prosecution? What was the final verdict again? Did you really think you were making some grand point by citing an argument that has already been considered and explicitly rejected. Good news, everyone! OJ really **was** innocent! > [@](#): > > Also, and this is really important, the law does not require someone to have sustained serious injury (or death) before they can legally respond with force. A reasonable fear of the imminence of such an injury will suffice. And again, a reasonable fact-finder could (and did) conclude a person having the base of their skull repeatedly struck against concrete while being pinned to the ground could legally justify such a fear. Events as described by Zimmerman, please note. Also, the point remains that unarmed Martin was being followed by an armed aggressor. Despite the insistence of others that the onus was on Martin to de-escalate or flee, by your own argument and the known evidence Martin also would have had a reasonable fear of imminent injury (or worse) and the right to legally respond with force. ---
**Author:** ![DirkHardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@DirkHardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkHardly)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1494 "2020-02-26T11:58:22Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Wait, so publicly claiming that a jury decided wrong in declaring a defendant not guilty is defamation? OJ Simpson should be making a killing. (well a second one). Are you forgetting about the whole “civil judgement against Simpson” thing? And this claim is a lot more complicated than merely taking issue with a jury’s verdict. Accusations of racism, white-supremacy, and prejudice are, unsurprisingly, potentially defamatory. And the further issue is implying those things are associated with Zimmerman’s actions in Martin’s death. Actions which, again, the law found to be self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![DirkHardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@DirkHardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkHardly)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1495 "2020-02-26T12:08:06Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Might we have a phrase for the legal right to not flee from someone following you? Can you think of it? > > CMC fnord! Martin certainly was under no legal obligation to flee. There is also zero competent evidence that he was legally justified in using violence against Zimmerman. All this talk about who followed whom, who confronted whom, etc. is ultimately irrelevant. The only relevant issue is who first initiated violence or the threat of imminent violence. And the only persuasive evidence we have on that issue is Martin witnessed on top of Zimmerman violently attacking him. ---
**Author:** ![DirkHardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@DirkHardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkHardly)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1496 "2020-02-26T12:59:10Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Good news, everyone! OJ really **was** innocent! > > Events as described by Zimmerman, please note. > > Also, the point remains that unarmed Martin was being followed by an armed aggressor. Despite the insistence of others that the onus was on Martin to de-escalate or flee, by your own argument and the known evidence Martin also would have had a reasonable fear of imminent injury (or worse) and the right to legally respond with force. Yes, as described by Zimmerman as well as other witnesses and without competent contradictory evidence. In addition, your colloquial description of Zimmerman as the aggressor is meaningless from a legal perspective and I’ve never insisted that Martin was under any legal obligation to de-escalate or flee. Only to not initiate physical violence absent a legal justification. And none of the evidence or arguments presented here by me, by others in this thread, or in the trial, come even close to meeting that standard. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1497 "2020-02-26T13:01:09Z")
> [@DirkHardly](#): > > Martin certainly was under no legal obligation to flee. There is also zero competent evidence that he was legally justified in using violence against Zimmerman. All this talk about who followed whom, who confronted whom, etc. is ultimately irrelevant. The only relevant issue is who first initiated violence or the threat of imminent violence. And the only persuasive evidence we have on that issue is Martin witnessed on top of Zimmerman violently attacking him. Oh piss off, “the only relevant issue?” The only time that was the only relevant issue was at Zimmerman’s trial, and even then that’s only what the prosecution wanted to focus on. Out here in the rest of society, it’s absolutely relevant that an adult man with a gun profiled a black teenager, followed him in the dark, and then killed him. We can and should absolutely be talking about the racism, the prejudice, and the unreasonable fear that would cause someone to make such a life changing decision like Zimmerman did and yet be so completely wrong about it that a child ended up dead for no reason. And we can certainly talk about why people are responding to this senseless death 8 years later with a completely bullshit line of thinking like “Well he shouldn’t have been out after dark without expecting some kind of trouble, and also he was probably a jewelry thief” or something. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1498 "2020-02-26T13:45:15Z")
> [@DirkHardly](#): > > Martin certainly was under no legal obligation to flee. There is also zero competent evidence that he was legally justified in using violence against Zimmerman.All this talk about who followed whom, who confronted whom, etc. is ultimately irrelevant. The only relevant issue is who first initiated violence or the threat of imminent violence. Yes, if you dismiss the evidence that might demonstrate that Martin reasonably felt threatened by Zimmerman, there’s no evidence. Funny how that works. > [@](#): > > And the only persuasive evidence we have on that issue is Martin witnessed on top of Zimmerman violently attacking him. Which is irrelevant to determining the reason why that might have happened, a reason which is _entirely relevant to the point_. > [@DirkHardly](#): > > Yes, as described by Zimmerman as well as other witnesses and without competent contradictory evidence. In addition, your colloquial description of Zimmerman as the aggressor is meaningless from a legal perspective Is it, though? He took up a weapon and followed an unarmed man who was committing no crime despite direction from the 911 dispatcher not to. Had Martin been armed and shot Zimmerman instead, he’d have had a pretty solid case under Stand Your Ground laws, particularly given Zimmerman’s background. But he couldn’t make that case, because he wasn’t armed and because he’s now dead. > [@](#): > > and I’ve never insisted that Martin was under any legal obligation to de-escalate or flee. I didn’t say you personally had. > [@](#): > > Only to not initiate physical violence absent a legal justification. And none of the evidence or arguments presented here by me, by others in this thread, or in the trial, come even close to meeting that standard. Because the only person able to make that legal argument regarding Martin’s state of mind and the level of threat he felt would have been Martin. Who is dead. Again, funny how that works. You are very carefully threading semantic and legal needles in order to obscure the application of a blatant double standard. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1499 "2020-02-26T15:05:39Z")
> [@DirkHardly](#): > > the only persuasive evidence we have on that issue is Martin witnessed on top of Zimmerman violently attacking him. You mean [John Good, who testified that he never actually saw any punches](https://thinkprogress.org/witness-makes-key-admission-that-he-never-saw-trayvon-martin-throw-a-punch-at-zimmerman-c218cec6d3e0/)? ---
**Author:** ![DirkHardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@DirkHardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkHardly)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480/1500 "2020-02-26T15:48:54Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Oh piss off, “the only relevant issue?” The only time that was the only relevant issue was at Zimmerman’s trial, and even then that’s only what the prosecution wanted to focus on. > > Out here in the rest of society, it’s absolutely relevant that an adult man with a gun profiled a black teenager, followed him in the dark, and then killed him. We can and should absolutely be talking about the racism, the prejudice, and the unreasonable fear that would cause someone to make such a life changing decision like Zimmerman did and yet be so completely wrong about it that a child ended up dead for no reason. > And we can certainly talk about why people are responding to this senseless death 8 years later with a completely bullshit line of thinking like “Well he shouldn’t have been out after dark without expecting some kind of trouble, and also he was probably a jewelry thief” or something. You’re free of course to have your own ill-founded, stupid opinions. But you’ve been massively outvoted, and I’m going to go ahead and go with the law, which is the system we all agreed on. It’s also been written and tested by numerous people over centuries, all of whom almost certainly more intelligent than you and spending infinitely longer on considering the issues. And as far as the evidence shows, the only reason Martin was killed is because he attacked Zimmerman and put him in legitimate fear sufficient to justify deadly force. That is the only obligation Martin had, not to initiate unjustified violence, and the only evidence we have says he failed to do so. It continues to baffle me that people can’t even allow for the possibility that Martin, a 17-year-old male, started the fight. Testosterone is a helluva drug. Hell, it’s like 80-90% of the reason we need police in the first place. I’ve witnessed males of that age group walk eagerly into what one would hope was the ass-kicking of their lives. Where everyone knew it was a bad, bad idea except that person and their ego. Teenage and twentysomething males are, as a group, one of the purest examples of human stupidity that exists on this planet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480.md?page=74) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-in-the-news-again/694480.md?page=76)