# George Zimmerman is now a painter. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 18, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629 "2013-12-18T06:43:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/21 "2013-12-18T21:51:05Z")
The painting is still up for bid, and no one has mentioned that it’s a tracing. I would, but I don’t have an eBay account. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/22 "2013-12-18T22:35:50Z")
Maybe he will finally paint himself into a corner? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/23 "2013-12-18T22:39:31Z")
If it is a tracing then the major news outlets will have the story soon. I was surprised by how good the painting was for a beginner. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/24 "2013-12-18T22:48:06Z")
If it is a tracing, the Democratic Underground did a really shit job of showing it. If it is a tracing, it should be possible to overlay them exactly, like [this](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/44/Fairey_poster_photo_source%3F%2C_by_stevesimula.jpg). [This](http://upload.democraticunderground.com/imgs/earlg/gz-flag-06.jpg) should be identical to [this](http://upload.democraticunderground.com/imgs/earlg/gz-flag-05.jpg), and they’re not. You should also note the second row, which is a completely unrelated photo that was still claimed to be the source, because coincidences do happen when dealing with public images that are frequently captured. Hell, maybe he paid the whole $12 fee to copy it. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/25 "2013-12-18T22:56:31Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > If it is a tracing then the major news outlets will have the story soon. I was surprised by how good the painting was for a beginner. This. Inspired by a work—and the two images cited by Grumman are awfully similar—is different than light-boxing a work and making a paint-by-numbers copy of it. To my eye, with the information I have, this looks like he was inspired by it, but not a copy or tracing. Whether Zimmerman’s painting would infringe any copyright held by the artist of the first work is another question. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/26 "2013-12-18T23:05:42Z")
I bet once this first painting is sold, the rest won’t even sell. It’s not that great, and once the notoriety is gone, that’ll be it. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/27 "2013-12-18T23:08:31Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > I’m mostly agreeing with your last sentence, but there were quite a few things about this case that make it different than an ordinary murder defense. All of the expenses for dealing with the media crush come to mind. God knows how many shadow juries and jury consultants they had to employ. Dr. Vincent DiMaio is one of the, if not _the_, leading authority in his field. (His [textbook](http://www.amazon.com/Gunshot-Wounds-Ballistics-Techniques-Investigations/dp/0849381630) is very interesting reading and clearly written.) I doubt he consults and testifies on very many murder cases. Nor do I think that he works cheaply. If there were additional security expenses for themselves, Zimmerman, or his wife, their fee might reflect those too. Experts are indeed expensive. Maybe $50,000 to $100,000 even. Jury consultants and focus groups, can be done for reasonable amounts. I’m granting an extra $750,000 for the unusual aspects of the case. A normal case like this could be defended for $250,000 easy. A million is more than generous. Lawyers bill a lot, but no sane defendant agrees to what Zimmerman apparently agreed to. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/28 "2013-12-18T23:10:45Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Whether Zimmerman’s painting would infringe any copyright held by the artist of the first work is another question. He should stand his ground on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/29 "2013-12-18T23:15:24Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > This. Inspired by a work—and the two images cited by Grumman are awfully similar—is different than light-boxing a work and making a paint-by-numbers copy of it. To my eye, with the information I have, this looks like he was inspired by it, but not a copy or tracing. Whether Zimmerman’s painting would infringe any copyright held by the artist of the first work is another question. It would not. You cannot copyright the idea of a waving American flag. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/30 "2013-12-19T00:19:20Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > It would not. You cannot copyright the idea of a waving American flag. No one said anything about copyrighting the idea of it. Copyrighting that particular artist’s _expression_ of the idea, as fixed in a tangible medium of expression such as a pictorial work like a painting, is possible. It’s right in [17 USC § 102](17 USC § 102). Whether Zimmerman’s painting so closely copies the original painting as to constitute a derivative work, is a question for copyright experts. IANAL, but from the one copyright class I’ve taken, I’d opine that they’re similar enough that it does. Whether it infringes is yet another question. But one can absolutely copyright a painting. See the Copyright Office’s Circular 40, _[Copyright Registration for Pictorial, Graphic, and Sculptural Works](http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ40.pdf)_ for more information on how to do so. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/31 "2013-12-19T00:50:10Z")
Didn’t take long for the scammers to jump on. A Ebay Search for George Zimmerman brings up all kinds of junk. Scribbled pencil drawings, other crude paintings. This listing looks very odd to me. Maybe its something that’s been sold for a long time? I’m surprised a seller with that rating would risk listing it like this. The listing obviously hopes some newbie will bid thinking its the real deal. [http://www.ebay.com/itm/George-Zimmerman-Painting-/171198342672?pt=Art\_Paintings&hash=item27dc376610](http://www.ebay.com/itm/George-Zimmerman-Painting-/171198342672?pt=Art_Paintings&hash=item27dc376610) ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/32 "2013-12-19T00:52:31Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > No one said anything about copyrighting the idea of it. You did, once you started talking about inspiration. And frankly, anyone who tried to argue someone was inspired by their perfectly ordinary photo of a waving American flag and not the waving American flag itself deserves to be laughed out of court. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/33 "2013-12-19T01:09:12Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Experts are indeed expensive. Maybe $50,000 to $100,000 even. Jury consultants and focus groups, can be done for reasonable amounts. I’m granting an extra $750,000 for the unusual aspects of the case. A normal case like this could be defended for $250,000 easy. A million is more than generous. Lawyers bill a lot, but no sane defendant agrees to what Zimmerman apparently agreed to. O’Mara’s _costs_ were fully paid out of defense fund donations. In reality, his fees have been fully paid, too; he’s gone from a family law attorney with a good local reputation who dabbled in criminal work to one of the most sought-after criminal defense attorneys in the state. Also, from the Q&A section on the eBay listing: > [@](#): > > Q: Will Mark O’Meara receive any proceeds from the sale of this painting? > A: No. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/34 "2013-12-19T01:28:08Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > No no, you’re thinking of Bob Ross. “Happy little Jews…” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/35 "2013-12-19T01:30:53Z")
Would it be the worst thing in the world if I started a Twitter feed with the handle @therealtrayvon and started selling paintings of George Zimmerman shooting at black kids? ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/36 "2013-12-19T01:32:41Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > You did, once you started talking about inspiration. And frankly, anyone who tried to argue someone was inspired by their perfectly ordinary photo of a waving American flag and not the waving American flag itself deserves to be laughed out of court. No, I didn’t. What I wrote was, “Inspired by a work—and the two images cited by Grumman are awfully similar—is different than light-boxing a work and making a paint-by-numbers copy of it.” The two images you cited look very much like Zimmerman’s painting was inspired by the other work: the use of very similar colors, in very similar locations within the composition, a similar appearance to the stars, similar waves within the flag. But, as you note, one is not an identical copy or a tracing of the other. I made the distinction between light-boxing and inspiration in order to show that Zimmerman required more artistic skill to make a painting that was only inspired by another work, rather than a complete tracing of that other painting. I also wrote, “Whether Zimmerman’s painting would infringe any copyright held by the artist of the first work is another question.” A finding that the works are identical is not required for a finding that one work is a derivative work of the other. And I doubt that Zimmerman got a license to produce a derivative work of the first painting; hence if it was derivative, his would be an unauthorized derivative work. What I did not write was anything about copyrighting the idea behind an artistic work. Because that’s not what copyright is designed to protect. It protects expression. In short: I don’t think his painting was a tracing. I think Zimmerman has some artistic talent. I do think it’s similar to the work you cited, similar enough that I think it would have a decent chance of being found to be derivative of the other—should the original artist try to sue Zimmerman for infringement. Finally, an artist can definitely obtain a copyright for one of her artistic works, including paintings. I hope this clears up any confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/37 "2013-12-19T01:35:37Z")
I don’t know anything about copyright law, but I have this vague idea that you have to be working in the same medium for visual art to be derivative. I can’t back that up, though. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/38 "2013-12-19T01:35:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Would it be the worst thing in the world if I started a Twitter feed with the handle @therealtrayvon and started selling paintings of George Zimmerman shooting at black kids? I don’t know about the Twitter handle idea, but on the other, won’t you have to get into line with [everyone else](http://www.theindychannel.com/news/u-s-world/graphic-painting-of-zimmerman-shooting-trayvon-martin-unveiled)? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/39 "2013-12-19T01:47:51Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > No, I didn’t. What I wrote was, “Inspired by a work—and the two images cited by Grumman are awfully similar—is different than light-boxing a work and making a paint-by-numbers copy of it.” The two images you cited look very much like Zimmerman’s painting was inspired by the other work: the use of very similar colors, in very similar locations within the composition, a similar appearance to the stars, similar waves within the flag. You’ve got it backwards - those pictures were taken from the Democratic Underground article, and one was a deliberate attempt by them to recreate Zimmerman’s painting using the picture they claimed he copied. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Would it be the worst thing in the world if I started a Twitter feed with the handle @therealtrayvon and started selling paintings of George Zimmerman shooting at black kids? It wouldn’t be as bad as Hitler, but it would still make you a contemptible excuse for a human being. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629/40 "2013-12-19T05:25:46Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > You’ve got it backwards - those pictures were taken from the Democratic Underground article, and one was a deliberate attempt by them to recreate Zimmerman’s painting using the picture they claimed he copied… My bad; I thought you were citing a previous painting or photo that his critics were alleging he’d traced over to make his painting. Do you have a link to the original picture that they’re claiming he copied? I think RNATB’s business venture would be masterful trolling. Even Dada-esque art. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-zimmerman-is-now-a-painter/676629.md?page=3)