Georgia Flag Debate

Cap- I think that forrest would love it- but that is just MHO.

Spoke- a few more facts about your “greatest tactician” & great general- who campaigned so much in Tenn that it is Ok that he has more monuments to him than any other person is any other state. His 'campaigns in Tenn"- there were several important battles in/for Tenn (Per “Battle History of the Civil War”)- Chattanuaga, Chickamunga, Knoxville and the siege of Knoxville. NBF was not mentioned as having any part in any of these. He did “skirmish” at Chattanuaga. The important Generals who commanded in Tenn were: Hardee, Polk, AS Johnson, Longstreet & Hood. All fairly well known Generals- but NBF has more monuments than all of them all together, from what I can figure from Loewen. And there was a Confederate “Army of Tennessee”- which was commanded by two of those generals- but never NBF. Why then Forrest? Why not Longstreet? Or Hood? or Polk? Well, none of them ever: killed 200 negro soldiers who had surrendered, blew a negro prisoners brains out for insisting he was a “free man” or was the first National leader of the KKK. If not for those “qualifications”- in my mind NBF would be as well known as Gen. Leadbetter or Cleburn- who also commanded in Tenn.

As far as NBF being a “good general” and “the greatest tactician” of the war- he commanded at just one major battle- Tupelo- where he got his “greatest tactician” butt whupped by a 3rd rate yankee General. True, the Yankees did outnumber him- but the yankees almost always outnumbered the rebs- no problem for that 'not as good tactician" Lee. His great raids? Well, his greatest was likely in Sept 1869- when he penetrated very deep into yankee territory. The Strategic consequences of that raid? Possibly Hood’s loss to Sherman, as Hood had been counting on Forrest- but he wasn’t there.

Oh, and the author does praise NBF as a “brilliant cavalryman” (which I have said all along)- but also called him an “almost illiterate slavetrader”.

Daniel, please, correct your ignorance of Civil War battles and tactics before continuing to argue about it, okay? As a favor to the rest of us?

Here is a neutral and (I think) trustworthy source of information for you. It is a site from the American Battlefield Protection Program of the National Park Service, and contains information on every major battle of the Civil War, listing principle commanders and forces, and giving good summary information. Please look at the Battle of Tupelo and notice that the blame for the Confederate loss cannot legitimately be placed on Forrest, but instead resides squarely with Gen’l Stephen Lee (name sound familiar?).

While you’re looking at battles, you might pay close attention to Brice’s Crossroads and Memphis to get a better feel for the general character of Forrest’s defense of Mississippi. See also Day’s Gap, Parker’s Cross Roads and Paducah for an illustration of the nature of Forrest’s major efforts during the war, which, when not defensive maneuvers, of neccessity and design were harrassment and disruption of Union forces and the Union supply lines, and capture of supplies for the Confederate forces. While this strategic mission was one which could not by its very nature lead to many decisive victories, it was a vital mission nonetheless, and it is Forrest’s tactics and tenacity in his pursuit of this mission which reveal his true genius as a soldier.

Some astonishing examples of ignorance right here in this thread:

Who wrote this “Battle History of the Civil War?” Where exactly do they locate this “Chattanauga” on a map? (snicker)

Huh. My map doesn’t show that one either. (snicker)

Wow. I’ll bet that one DID grab some headlines.

Considering that the war ended in 1865.

Imagine the looks on people’s faces when Forrest and his troops came riding into town four years later.

Danielinthewolvesden, you really should study up a bit before you re-enter this thread. xenophon41 is right.

First off, you don’t know my history credentials, so you might want to be cautious about disparaging them. Since you brought it up, I graduated with honors from Duke with a degree in American history. Ph.D.? Nah, but frankly, I don’t think a few extra letters make you any more qualified to offer opinions. Degrees don’t change the facts.

And since you continue to hang your hat on Prof. Morison (he spells it with one ‘r’ I believe), I took the time to stroll down to my corner library and review his work. I wanted to see whether his account of the war was as “neutral” and “unbiased” as you claimed.

I figured a good place to look would be his description of Sherman’s march. A neutral observer would have to report the depredations that occured on that march, right?

Well, according to Morison, Sherman captured Atlanta, and later marched out of it. That’s it.

Oddly, no mention of the fact that in the interim he burned it to the ground. Gee, was Morison unaware of that fact?

Morison goes on to describe the rest of Sherman’s march in heroic terms. Did the union troops do any looting? Morison blames the looting mostly on stray Confederate troops. (!!!)

Even more astonishingly, Morison reports that Sherman’s troops committed no “outrages” on women. (!!!)

Thank you Professor Pollyanna!

Regarding Forrest, he does say (as you report) that Forrest and the other Confederate cavalrymen contributed little to the Confederate cause. He then goes on (apparently by way of contrast) to report glowingly the feats of mounted Federal Dragoons.

Well, please pardon me Daniel, but this underqualified history major thinks your boy Morison could use a couple dozen more fact-checkers.

Well, while I was at the library, I decided to pull a few cites for our buddy Danielinthewolvesden:

Let’s see, the Historical Times Illustrated Encyclopedia of the Civil War, (Patricia Faust, Ed.)(Harper & Row, 1986), calls Forrest “the most feared of all Confederate Cavalry leaders,” and mentions his “extraordinary capability as a tactician.”

The book goes on to describe Forrest’s victory at Brice’s Crossroads as “one of the most humiliating defeats in the history of the United States Army.” (Thanks, xenophon41, for the link.) According to this site, “[Forrest’s] engagement of Federal troops at Brice’s Crossroads on June 10, 1864 is considered by many the perfect battle.”

Were his raids (denigrated by Daniel) important? Well, according to Who Was Who in the Civil War (Stewart Sifakis, Facts on File Publications, 1988), Forrest’s raid in West Tennessee in December of 1862 and January of 1863 helped force Grant to abandon his campaign in central Mississippi. (Confirming my earlier point that the war would have been over much sooner without Forrest.)

The book also points out that Forrest had 29 horses shot out from under him in combat, and personally killed 31 men in hand-to-hand fighting.

Shelby Foote (citing an unnamed pundit) says of Forrest that he was “born to be a soldier the way John Keats was born to be a poet.”

Regarding Loewen’s story about Forrest allegedly executing a black captive, Danielinthewolvesden says:

Apparently, your boy Loewen’s citations aren’t as “excellent” as you believe. Wills makes no mention of this story, at least not on the page numbers cited by Loewen. I couldn’t find it anywhere in Wills’s book.

Another Forrest biographer, Jack Hurst, does mention the story, but seems to regard it as apocryphal. He reports it as a Union general’s third-hand hearsay account. (Hurst, Jack, Nathan Bedford Forrest, Alfred A. Knopf, 1993, p. 103.)

Incidentally, these sources also confirm that Forrest offered 45 of his slaves their freedom if they would join him, that they did join him, and that Forrest did in fact grant their freedom before the war ended.

Did Forrest make any valuable contributions to the Battle of Chickamauga? (Daniel, please note the spelling. Also please note that Chickamauga is in Georgia.) Well, according to this site,

On the subject of the atrocities committed by Sherman’s troops, there is the story of Roswell Mill. From that site:

Does that count as an “outrage” against women, Daniel? You might want to forward that link to the good folks publishing the Oxford History of the American People to make them aware of this incident. I’m sure they’ll want to include a correction in their next edition.

More on the “Roswell women” here.

Funny how atrocities by Union troops get so little play from historians.

It is real mature to attack someone for some spelling errors.

Next altho Chickamauga is in GA, I said "important battles in/for Tenn). That battle is considered part of the Tenn campaign, and the Commander of the Army of Tenn defended it. Again- Forrest “skirmished”. He did not command the army- he did not command a wing- he was “just another general”. Why are not the generals who actually COMMANDED there as honored as NBF? Why not the general who commanded the ARMY of TENNESSEE?

Yes, it looks like Brices crossroads was a victory for NBF- so what? It was a minor battle, with less than 10000 soldiers fighting. The rest of those “great victories”? Extremely small, unimportant battles, some with less than 1000 men engaged. Oh- and “Days gap” was a UNION victory, by an outnumbered Union Col. NBF commanded a major force in exactly ONE major battle- Tupelo- and he got his ass whupped by a 3rd rate Union general. Blame it on the “other” Lee? Well- but if NBF rarely obeyed orders, why this time? besides- NBF commanded a wing- and his wing did poorly, under his direct command. Maybe the STRATEGIC blunder rests with Lee- but the tactical loss is as much NBF’s fault. The reason, IMHO- this was a actual battle, with large numbers of troops involved. NBF was great- with small forces in raids, not “line up and fight” battles. He had one chance in a major battle with a major force- and he lost- and not to a Grant or a Sherman, either.

And why not comment on NBF’s great raid of 1864 (more mature, insult someone for a typo), where, instead af backing up Hood, as he was supposed to, and was expected to- he wenr off raiding, instaed- thus, Hood lost to Sherman. You talk about Shermans supposed 'atrocities"- he could not have done those if Hood has stopped him- and Hood could not stop him, as his Cavalry was out on a raid- without the Commanding Generals approval or knowledge. That is why, altho NBF was, indeed a brilliant small unit cavalry commander- he sucked as a General- as he disobeyed orders, went his own way, and had what appears to be no knowledge of strategy at all.

Spoke- you have every right to your opinion. And the fact that you have a lower degree does not make your opinion nessesarily worth less. But you were NOT simply giving YOUR opinon on things- you attacked Morisons work & opinion. At that point in time- it is perfectly legit to compare qualifications- and yours do not match Morisons, I am afraid.

DITWD, your last post is a prime example of why you receive so much grief on this MB. I don’t want to give up on you entirely, but I for one am not going to continue to waste my time trying to force-feed you facts about NBF. If you wish to conclude that the only reason there could be so many monuments to Forrest in his home state is because the Southerners who erected them were all racist bastards, have a freakin’ party. Don’t let historical fact and common sense dissuade you.

If you’d like some further explanation about why it’s important to research history through a variety of sources, and why historical events and personages should only be judged in the context of their respective time and place, feel free to consult with your SCA seneschal.

Regarding the “spelling errors”:

Sorry, but “Chattanauga” and “Chickamunga” are pretty egregious errors, for someone trying to present himself as knowledgable about the Civil War. Besides, you’re the one who started talking about academic credentials. People who live in glass houses…

Wrong. Forrest’s men comprised the right wing of the Confederate line, a vital position. Sorry, son; Chickamauga was no “skirmish.”

Wrong again, Herodotus. The Union sent Col. Abel Straight on a raid into Alabama, the ultimate goal of which was to cut the Western & Atlantic rail line (Bragg’s supply line).

Forrest was outnumbered by more than three to one. Because of his numerical disadvantage, his task was to conduct a series of “attack and fall back” harrassing actions against the Union raiders. Days Gap was but one in a series of such attacks.

Forrest was ultimately successful. He and fewer than 500 of his men managed to bluff nearly 1700 Union troops into surrendering outside Gadsden, Alabama. (More here.) The raid failed. If that ain’t a Confederate victory, what is?

xenophon41 was right. You are aggressively ignorant.

After the war Jefferson Davis conceded that Forrest’s exploits were not fully appreciated in Richmond. If they had been appreciated, Forrest would undoubtedly been given a larger command. According to Hurst’s biography (cited above):

–Hurst, Nathan Bedford Forrest (Alfred A. Knopf, Inc. 1993), p. 198.

Why aren’t there more markers commemorating Bragg? Maybe because Bragg was a :wally He won a major victory at Chickamauga, but then failed to press the attack on the retreating Union Army. That failure ultimately opened the door for Sherman’s campaign.

Yes, folks, these two fine residents of the deep South are giving me heck about my “ignorance” of the Civil War- and of course, by their lights, I AM 'ignorant"- after all, it is ignorant folks like me & Prof. Morison, who, despite the overwhelming number of Confederate victories, continue to insist the Union actually won the war- ahhh, silly me. Is it just, MAYBE possible, that two residents of Georgia might be a TEEENSY bit biased? Naaahhh. :rolleyes: And the Ad hominem attacks are also VERY mature, thanks guys.

I cite reputable sources, and they, instead of assailing the facts- attack the sources, without justification. Spoke has made some very strong claims- but refused to back them up, or back down. My claims- backed up all by cites, or are specifically MHO.

I did not say that Chickamauga was a 'skirmish", but Bragg commanded there, not NBF. NBFs role is not mentioned in either book. Again, I ask- why is NBF glorified over the men who actually commanded the Armies?

Spoke- you said NBF won the battle of “Days Gap”, and assail my ignorance for thinking otherwise. Well, go to the above cite that Xeno used- and click on “Days Gap”- right there at the bottom, what does it say? “Union victory”- and from your guys OWN cite. And let’s USE that very cite to see how “great” NBF is. Tupelo- NBF only major battle, some 20K of troops- result? NBF loses. Next- Brices- some 10K a troops, not major, but hardly minor battle. Result- “brilliant NBF victory”. Memphis- maybe 1K total troops- so minor as to be insignificant- but again, NBF victory. Days Gap- sdome 2K troops, hardly a big one- considered a Union victory (altho NBF did OK tacticly here, but the Union met their strategic objectives- IMHO that is why it is called a Union victory) Oh, and it LOOKs like NBF outnumbered the Yanks. Parkers- moderate sized- “both sides claimed victory” but the site throw it to the Rebs- let us call that a “contested victory” for NBF. Finally, Paducah- where NBF OUTNUMBERs the yanks some 4 to 1, but only manages to raid supplies, instaed of rooting the badly outnumber Union garrison out. Call that a “tactical victory”- but any commander could have done as well if not better, if he outnumbered the foe 4-1.

So, we have 1 major loss, 1 brilliant victory, one insignificant victory, a strategic loss, 1 “contested victory” and finaly another win, but only by brunt of numbers. Gee, what a great record. 1 big win, 1 big loss. :rolleyes: Ok, better than many of the gross incompetents who were on the Union side, but hardly a record to equal Lee’s.

My point is, and i think I have shown it to be true- is that ONE of the major reasons for the glorification of the Confederate battle flag- is racism by Southern apologists. And, that that is illustrated by the glorification of a rather minor General, way over his contempories- who also “just happened to be” the first national Leader of the KKK. Does that mean that every one who thinks NBF had some great moments as a cavalry commander is a racist? No, of course not. But his glory FAR outwieghs his importance, and the reason for that can be found at Ft Pillow, and in the hundreds of Black folk killed while NBF was the Leader of the KKK. Can you explain them away?

Well, no. The raid failed when Forrest ultimately captured the Union troops (with a numerically inferior force of Confederates).

On the contrary, I have justified my attacks:

Loewen is not a reputable historian. He twists some facts and conceals others to fit his hypothesis. For example, he mentions the statue to Forrest in Gadsden, and states that the reason for the statue (and other monuments) is racism, but then fails to reveal to his readers that Forrest saved Gadsden from Union raiders. Likewise, Loewen fails to mention Forrest’s conciliatory efforts toward black Southerners. (You still have offered no motive for Forrest to speak to a black gathering, if not a genuine desire for reconciliation.)

Morison, while “reputable,” is plainly biased. I have shown a specific example of a factual error from his book (his whitewashing of Union atrocities), and have shown how the structure of his narrative suggests bias.

One might as easily ask why commanding generals should be glorified over the generals who actually fought, as Forrest did.

First off, Forrest was not commanding at Tupelo. In fact, Forrest’s suggestion of an immediate attack, before the arriving Union army settled into its positions, was countermanded by his superior. Tough to blame that one on Forrest.

Secondly, you could as easily call the battle a draw, since both sides wound up withdrawing. However, I will concede it as a Union victory (since the Confederates failed in their objective of cutting supply lines) if you will concede that Days Gap was a Confederate victory (since the Union failed in its objective of cutting Confederate supply lines).

You seem to be, uh, “forgetting” Forrest’s 50-odd other engagements during the war. If they put up a marker at the site of each of those engagements, well, that adds up to a lot of markers, doesn’t it? The “commanding generals” neither ranged as far, nor were in as many fights. Small wonder that they have fewer markers.

You might want to bear in mind what Forrest’s contemporaries had to say about him before you call him over-glorified:[ul][li]Lee called him the greatest general in the war.[/li][li]Sherman called him “the most remarkable man our Civil War produced on either side.”[/li]Grant said “For the particular kind of war which Forrest had carried on neither army could produce a more effective officer.”[/ul]

[ul]General Joe Johnston called Forrest “the greatest soldier the Civil War produced.”[/ul]

spoke, I’d like to remind you that, although they might possibly have had some minor insights into the conduct of the war, none of the gentlemen you’ve mentioned who praised Forrest had PhD’s in history or full professorships at Harvard, so of course you’ll have to discount their opinions somewhat in relation to Morison’s.

:rolleyes:

Yes, i knew you were going to trot out NBF “many other victories”. Let me give you another quote from Loewen: “Forrest was a brilliant cavalry commander, but his career looks better on the landscape than in reality because his defeats get no attention, or are marked some ambiguously that they look like victories. Jim Jones of the Tennessee Historical Comm. notes that the following marker, though perfectly accurate, and much more important that (others) will never go up on the Tennessee landscape: Forrest Whipped Here: On August 29, 1862, Gen NB Forrest, commanding… attacked a Federal force they outnumbered 9 to 1. After 3 charges led by Forrest himself, the Confederates were repulsed. The Federal force, 2 companies of the 18th Ohio, defended their stockade here at Short Mtn. Cross roads.” “Across the South, historical markers would have us beleive that the Confederates won every skirmish and most battles- mystifying the outcome. Liston Pope, who grew up in the South, said it best: ‘I never could understand how our Confederate troops could have won every battle in the War so decisively and then lost the War itself’” “Forrests Military career simply cannot explain the extraordinary homage Tennessee… pays him. His operations in Tenn were on a modest scale, far less important than those of Confederate gen. Bragg, sy, or Ulyses S. Grant. Yet Bragg & grant get far less recognition”.

Tupelo? NBF commanded 6000 of the 8000 rebels there. But the loss was “not his fault”. True, the strategic decision of WHEN to fight was made by his superiour, but surely “the greatest tactician of the war” could have overcome that, and did well on the actual battlefield- he did not. Whenever he was called upon to do anything resembling an actual BATTLE, as opposed to a “raid”- he failed.

Let’s see here. Loewen is wrong. Morison is biased. The U.S. Govt Historical site that Xeno linked us to- is wrong. Yep- as i said before, clearly, in our delusion that the South lost the war, we are 'wrong". I give up.

I am not going to convince you two. You think that a rabid racist madman was a military hero. I disagree.

Absolute nonsense. Come to Atlanta, Daniel, and I will be happy to show you the numerous historical markers sprinkled around town noting Union victories.

See, this is exactly what I mean about Loewen. He seems to have no reluctance to tell a half-truth, or in this case to lie outright, to “prove” his point.

Another example: Among his “evidence” that Forrest is over-glorified, he mentions a city in Arkansas named for Forrest. Conveniently, he leaves out the fact that Forrest himself founded the city.

He mentions Forrest’s association with the Klan, but then fails to mention that Forrest ordered it disbanded, and indeed railed against Klan violence in his later years. He fails to mention the conciliatory speech to a black audience because it doesn’t fit his hypothesis.

As noted in my earlier post, Loewen’s citations to sources do not hold up under close examination. For example, he cites Wills as his source for the story of the black man supposedly slain by Forrest, and for his assertion that “black opponents always inflamed Forrest,” but the pages referenced by Loewen say absolutely nothing of the sort. In fact, one of the pages cited by Loewen actually describes Forrest’s religious conversion in later years.

There are other examples of this sort of deception in his book. In another chapter, Loewen describes, in incredulous tones, the statue of Stonewall Jackson on the grounds of the West Virginia State Capitol. (But West Virginia was a Union state!) Loewen fails to tell his readers that Stonewall Jackson was born in Clarksburg, in what is now West Virginia. That fact would make it a whole lot less astonishing to find his statue on the West Virginia Capitol grounds, but Loewen withholds the information from his readers.

Yep. See the quotes I just gave you from the four most prominent military commanders of the Civil War.

Not exactly. See, you pulled a little Loewen-esque maneuver yourself by stating that the site calls Days Gap a “Union Victory.” A half-truth. In fact, the site goes on to state that “the [Union] raid ultimately failed.” Just the point I made earlier. The Union did not achieve its strategic objective (contrary to your earlier post). Funny definition of “Union victory.”

Repeating an inflammatory epithet over and over is a classic propaganda technique. Did you study under Goebbels or under Gingrich?

Repeating the phrase doesn’t make it any more true.

The Fort Pillow Massacre? Yes it happened. The real question is whether Forrest ordered, abetted, or approved it. Confederate Samuel H. Caldwell, writing home to his wife, said that the Fort Pillow battle “was decidedly the most horrible sight I have ever witnessed,” and went on to add that “[t]hey refused to surrender–which incensed our men & if General Forrest had not run between our men and the Yanks with his pistol and sabre drawn not a man would have been spared.” (Hurst, p. 176.)(My emphasis.)

In fairness, the accounts are conflicting. Here again is an account of the battle for those seeking to draw their own conclusions.

As for the KKK affiliation, I have explained (with citations to Brittanica) that the KKK started as a social club, then morphed into a vigilante group, then descended into terrorism. When the terrorism erupted, Forrest disbanded the Klan, and he continued to decry violence against blacks until his dying day.

One example: In August of 1874, there was a racial disturbance in the west Tennesssee town of Trenton, following which 16 black men were jailed. Later, a white mob came, took the men from the jail, and murdered them.

Forrest’s reaction? At a meeting convened to decry the violence, Forrest took the podium and proclaimed that if he “were entrusted with proper authority he would capture and exterminate the white marauders who disgrace their race by their cowardly murder of negroes.” (Hurst, p. 361.)

Hardly sounds like a “rabid racist madman” to me.

And I am still awaiting your explanation as to why Forrest would appear before a black group to make a conciliatory speech in 1875. Well? Can you offer any motive, other than to express his heartfelt sentiments?

Daniel, listen to yourself, and think.

How about “cursory”, “incomplete”, a “survey”, and definitely not a primary source! I’m not familiar with the specific books you’re talking about, but I know what a condensed historical overview is–perhaps suitable for a main class textbook, but never the last word! And you call xenophon’s sources second-hand?? You’ve obviously read a lot more than I have on the War Between the States, but seem not to know the first basic thing about historical research–the differences between kinds of source. Textbooks are just a distillation, rather like postings in an SDMB thread. They’re not primary sources, they’re often not even secondary sources; they’re tertiary, they’re more condensed than Reader’s Digest would dream of being, they’re not ever the definitive gospel truth, nor the last word, and they can be horribly tendentious, incomplete, & inaccurate–without even trying!!

As for Loewen, I think you’ve been taken in by a crank with an axe to grind. Sounds like he’s given you lots of big-sounding numbers about how honored Forrest is, without pointing out how many more memorials there are to other Generals–or old mountain men, for that matter. It’s manipulation, that’s all. Historians need to have better banana-oil detectors, Daniel.

Anyway, back to the original subject of this thread:
The new flag sounds like a passable idea, but it lacks heraldic immediacy. I would favor the old, old yellow-and blue flag, with just the charge(s) of the seal, rather than the whole seal as a monochromatic charge. In any case, I don’t like those two Yankee flags–Stars and Stripes–being on it. They’re not “Georgia flags,” after all, and the 50-star one only has significance as the current U.S. flag at the time of this redesign.


That’s my 21 shillings.

Actually, it’s Hindu. The word comes from the Sanskrit svastika. It was used in Mesopotamia; ancient Scandinavia (it represented Thor’s hammer); early Christian and Byzantine art; and by the Mayans and Navajo, among other American tribes. It is still being used today by Jainas, Hindus and Buddhists. (You were partly correct.) For Buddhists, it represents Buddha’s footprints. All of these cultures considered it a good-luck symbol. (It looks to me like the Sun in abstract.)

In 1910, poet and nationalist idealist Guido von List suggested the swastika be used by anti-Semitic organizations. The Nazi party did so when it was formed in 1919.

The preceding was from the Encyclopedia Britannica.

How is a Confederate flag any more of a “Georgia flag” than an American flag? Did not the state of Georgia willingly enter (although obvously not willingly re-enter) both nations? Did not Georgians fight and die for the ideals represented in the Stars and Stripes as well?
jab1: Thanks for the info on swastikas!

I think we can close the Georgia flag debate. We all seem to be in agreement on the following: The flag needed to be changed. But not to the one they went with. It’s ugly-ass. Going back to the very first one would’ve been a better idea.

I’m going to continue with the Nathan Bedford Forrest (perhaps the moderators should add a “…/Nathan Bedford Forrest” to the thread title) debate. Although I’ve been mostly lurking here, I’ve become fascinated with the (hijacked) topic at hand, in light of spoke-'s contributions.

First off, I’ll list my biases up front. I was born up North, in Indiana, and moved between there, Illinois, and Ohio until age 10 when I moved to Georgia. I stayed there until I graduated college shortly before my 23rd birthday, after which I moved to Arizona, a state populated mostly by Northerners, where I’ve lived for 7 1/2 years. Although it appears that I’m related to one prominent Confederate general, more than likely most of my direct ancestors fought for the Union. Overall, I’m damn glad the North won. While I don’t think of the Southern cause as “evil” or even “traitorous,” I think that, even in their spirit, passion, and sincerety, the Southerners were misguided.

That being said, I took it upon myself to research Nathan Bedford Forrest in my own Civil War books and at Border’s. One thing that every damn source, regardless of the author’s bias, agreed on was that NBF was a brilliant tactician, and the fact that he became so without any formal military education is even more astounding. Regarding other military figures’ attitude toward Forrest’s tactical prowess, I found an interesting example in Sherman: A Soldier’s Passion for Order by John F. Marszalek. It states:

The most objective and complete account of Forrest’s life I was able to find tonight is his biography by Jack Hurst. Browsing through it, I see that Forrest was truly a complex “Jeckyll and Hyde” figure (that’s what the review on the cover says) who went through an extraordinary transformation in his later years. Hurst does not make any apologies for Forrest’s character. To touch on items already discussed in this thread, in the introduction Hurst states

Regarding Forrest’s role at Fort Pillow, although accounts of his actions vary, Forrest’s actions during the massacre were less than favorable (and it was a massacre, shocking even a number of the Confederates who participated). Forrest’s statement’s about the skirmish after the fact are quite disturbing.

and

Hurst’s take on the whole incident is as follows:

Forrest’s attitude toward blacks later in life is summarized in the epilogue to this book, where Hurst states

and

Regarding NBF’s possible motives for his change in attitude, Hurst says

Granted, I’ve rehashed many things already mentioned in this thread (all that work and I kind of wonder if I really added anything here). Besides what I’ve already written in this thread, I must echo spoke- and say that damn near every skirmish and battle that occured in the South during the Civil War has a marker erected to it (Are we talking about monuments, i.e. statues and buildings, here, or markers? I’ll go with markers.), regardless of whether it was a Confederate or Union victory. Each one of those markers states the names of the commanders involved. I must also note that each marker I’ve seen presents an objective account of the event it commemorates. I lived in the South for 13 years and was able to familiarize myself with many of these markers. Given that, and looking at the map of the battles involving NBF, mostly in Tennessee, at the front of his biography, I’m not at all surprised that there are a number of markers in that state bearing his name. Even though I lived in Georgia and not Tennesse, I’m willing to bet that the markers up there are also pretty objective in their presentations.

To me, a racist attitude is a despicable trait. That being said, I feel that calling someone a “racist” is a very serious charge. If you’re going to claim that someone or that someone’s motivations are “racist,” you’re going to have to back it up with some hard facts about the person’s character and actions. Knowing what I know about the South, the only conclusion I can draw regarding all those “monuments” (markers?) to NBF is that the people who put them up wanted to commemorate various battles and skirmishes that took place there, not to glorify racism or even NBF personally. I’m completely unconvinced that DITWD’s assertion of the racist motivations behind these historic markers is correct.

Wow. This post is probably twice as long as it needs to be. Sorry about that. No, I’m not going to edit it for length; I’m too tired right now.

No! Delaware is the Blue Hen State. Y’all can’t have the chickens!

:slight_smile: