# Georgia governor signs strictest abortion bill in nation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2019, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659 "2019-05-08T09:49:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/181 "2019-05-09T21:26:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > In Georgia, it’s your choice up to a point (currently ~6 weeks). You already know this, but the bill eliminates choice by restricting it to a timeframe when most women don’t even know they are pregnant. By the time they realize… too late to act. Which is the point, which you know, and I don’t imagine it bothers you at all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/182 "2019-05-09T21:27:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I haven’t read it and don’t know. Besides, “This thread isn’t about that. If you care to start a “[DEL]Should you drop babies?[/DEL] [What do you think of the Alabama abortion bill?]” thread though, I would love to participate.” 😉 > > Okay, a little needling aside, I genuinely don’t have a firm position on cases of rape / incest. The debate is generally so far from the point where it’s an issue that I haven’t bothered to really refine / nail down my feelings on the subject, but I can generally see the competing interests between the innocent life of an unborn child, and the trauma a rape victim would have to endure by carrying her rapist’s baby to term. I hope that serves as an explanation of my feelings on the matter (fuzzy as they are) without further sidetracking the thread into an area that’s not at issue with the Georgia bill. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/183 "2019-05-09T21:30:13Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > You already know this, but the bill eliminates choice by restricting it to a timeframe when most women don’t even know they are pregnant. By the time they realize… too late to act. Which is the point, which you know, and I don’t imagine it bothers you at all. I actually don’t know this. I’m confident there are _some_ women that aren’t aware they’re pregnant at 6 weeks, but is it “most”? I don’t think I’ve ever seen any data on the matter. Do you have any evidence you’d like to share to support your assertion? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/184 "2019-05-09T21:39:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I actually don’t know this. I’m confident there are _some_ women that aren’t aware they’re pregnant at 6 weeks, but is it “most”? I don’t think I’ve ever seen any data on the matter. Do you have any evidence you’d like to share to support your assertion? Well, there’s the wiki page on menstruation and its surprising lack of references to atomic-clock-level regularity. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/185 "2019-05-09T21:42:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think he is confusing the Georgia bill with the Alabama bill. BTW, do you support the Alabama bill as it is now written, which takes out the rape and incest exclusions? I worded my question poorly. I was listening to NPR talk about the Alabama version of this, and it seems that the states are in a big rush to be the most restrictive on abortion rights, so I wanted to ask **HD** if he would support that change to the law that Georgia signed being changed in that way. Its seems to me that its only a matter of time that they try to do that in Georgia. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/186 "2019-05-09T21:46:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I haven’t read it and don’t know. Besides, “This thread isn’t about that. If you care to start a “[DEL]Should you drop babies?[/DEL] [What do you think of the Alabama abortion bill?]” thread though, I would love to participate.” 😉 > > Okay, a little needling aside, I genuinely don’t have a firm position on cases of rape / incest. The debate is generally so far from the point where it’s an issue that I haven’t bothered to really refine / nail down my feelings on the subject, but I can generally see the competing interests between the innocent life of an unborn child, and the trauma a rape victim would have to endure by carrying her rapist’s baby to term. I hope that serves as an explanation of my feelings on the matter (fuzzy as they are) without further sidetracking the thread into an area that’s not at issue with the Georgia bill. Okay, that was the answer I was looking for anyway about it. The reasons I was asking the questions were more to do about trying to understand if you were more “republicans rock I support everything they do” or more of a philosophical supporter of the measure. I can get the philosophical angle you have on the issue. I don’t maybe agree with it but I can at least understand where you are coming from. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/187 "2019-05-09T22:32:43Z")
I want to drag this back to the fundamental point of the Georgia law: that even a zygote is a “natural person.” All the speculation, all the confusion, comes down to this simple concept: sperm cell meets ovum, and bam, natural personhood. A natural person is guaranteed all the individual rights listed in the Constitution. The ramifications are endless, and that’s where this gets complex and where all the speculation, logical or illogical, likely or unlikely, arises. You can imagine the backroom talk among the legislators: \*\*OK, if it’s a person, does it qualify as an income tax deduction? \*\* _Sure!_ \*\*What about child support? \*\* _Heck, yeah–well, for medical care and maternity clothes and stuff, anyway._ \*\*What about if a woman is raped? \*\* - Uh…hmm…OK, she can murder that innocent natural person resulting from the rape. But only up to 20 weeks and IF she reports the rape to the police. \* \*\*But we said it’s a natural person and has rights! \*\* \*Quit confusing us, Richard. \* **Sorry. But what about miscarriage?** \*We’ll put that right in the bill: if a woman unintentionally causes a miscarriage, she’s OK. \* \*\*But if I unintentionally murder a natural person, I can be charged with negligent homicide. How is unintentional murder different if the natural person who dies is a zygote? \*\* _Richard, you idiot, it’s only a natural person when we WANT it to be a natural person. Now quit being a Dick._ ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/188 "2019-05-09T22:46:28Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I want to drag this back to the fundamental point of the Georgia law: that even a zygote is a “natural person.” All the speculation, all the confusion, comes down to this simple concept: sperm cell meets ovum, and bam, natural personhood. A natural person is guaranteed all the individual rights listed in the Constitution. The ramifications are endless, and that’s where this gets complex and where all the speculation, logical or illogical, likely or unlikely, arises. > > You can imagine the backroom talk among the legislators: > > \*\*OK, if it’s a person, does it qualify as an income tax deduction? \*\* > > _Sure!_ > > \*\*What about child support? \*\* > > _Heck, yeah–well, for medical care and maternity clothes and stuff, anyway._ > > \*\*What about if a woman is raped? \*\* > > - Uh…hmm…OK, she can murder that innocent natural person resulting from the rape. But only up to 20 weeks and IF she reports the rape to the police. \* > > \*\*But we said it’s a natural person and has rights! \*\* > > \*Quit confusing us, Richard. \* > > **Sorry. But what about miscarriage?** > > \*We’ll put that right in the bill: if a woman unintentionally causes a miscarriage, she’s OK. \* > > \*\*But if I unintentionally murder a natural person, I can be charged with negligent homicide. How is unintentional murder different if the natural person who dies is a zygote? \*\* > > _Richard, you idiot, it’s only a natural person when we WANT it to be a natural person. Now quit being a Dick._ You perfectly described why I am stuck on this. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/189 "2019-05-09T22:47:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think we agree that an infant in your arms, if one changes his mind about wanting to hold that infant, is now violating one’s bodily autonomy (but feel free to chime in if I’ve misunderstood you). Why then, is one obligated to “put it down”, expending the extra calories to bend over and place it gently on the ground, risking a strained back or hip or knee injury, expending those extra calories involved in the effort, etc.? Why can’t one just drop the baby? Surely you agree that’s the most expeditious route to restoring one’s bodily autonomy, right? I think that the fact that you’re equating a painless act that takes seconds with an “act” that takes literally months, causes significant discomfort and even pain for extended periods of time, and which has a reasonable probability of literally incarcerating the person for extended periods of bedrest and an increased possibility of death – all that is very explicitly placing a value on the woman’s time, feelings, and life. And that value is “essentially worthless”. I could just as fairly say “if you’re standing in my way, is it reasonable for me to get the government to make you step aside? In that case it’s similarly reasonable for me to have the government get you out of my way by throwing you in jail for six months while beating you regularly with socks full of pennies.” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/190 "2019-05-09T22:54:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I actually don’t know this. I’m confident there are _some_ women that aren’t aware they’re pregnant at 6 weeks, but is it “most”? I don’t think I’ve ever seen any data on the matter. Do you have any evidence you’d like to share to support your assertion? I do not know if there is any science on this but you can find loads of anecdotal evidence. It seems the earliest a woman knows is 3-4 weeks into the pregnancy. Six weeks seems a very common refrain and occasionally a good deal more than that. Obviously, when she knows will depend on many factors (e.g. is she trying to get pregnant, does she have a regular cycle, is she under a lot of stress…tons of reasons affect it). Needless to say irregular menstrual cycles are not at all uncommon. So, about the best a woman could hope for in Georgia is a two week window to decide to get an abortion and obtain one. Of course Georgia puts other roadblocks in her way such as mandatory, state-directed counseling and then a 24 hour waiting period and if she is a minor her parents must be notified except in the case of rape or incest. Many, many women will not even suspect they are pregnant till the window has closed for them to obtain one. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/191 "2019-05-09T22:56:44Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Obviously, when she knows will depend on many factors (e.g. is she trying to get pregnant, does she have a regular cycle, is she under a lot of stress…tons of reasons affect it). Needless to say irregular menstrual cycles are not at all uncommon. Not only that, but some women actually have some menstruation-like “symptoms” even after they’re pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/192 "2019-05-09T23:00:37Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > You perfectly described why I am stuck on this. It is only confusing if you try to make a zygote a legal human being with all the rights that pertain to one. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/193 "2019-05-09T23:11:44Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It is only confusing if you try to make a zygote a legal human being with all the rights that pertain to one. Maybe I’m also confused as to how all of a sudden the new being has more power than the existing being. Especially when the new being isn’t viable yet. This is too “woman is farm animal” to me. I’m not a woman though, so I can’t say to have an authority on it. I don’t know the way that Georgia did it just melts my brain. It doesn’t seem to be something that would stand up to a court challenge. I guess that from someone like **HD** ’s perspective, there is no money wasted that would delay some abortions from happening. (Not to speak for him) It just seems like pissing tax dollars away trying to throw a law out there that won’t ultimately ever go into effect. I don’t understand why he would want to spend his state’s tax money that way when there are people going without food there. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/194 "2019-05-09T23:19:46Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > I don’t know the way that Georgia did it just melts my brain. It doesn’t seem to be something that would stand up to a court challenge. I guess that from someone like **HD** ’s perspective, there is no money wasted that would delay some abortions from happening. (Not to speak for him) It just seems like pissing tax dollars away trying to throw a law out there that won’t ultimately ever go into effect. It will almost certainly fail every court challenge till the Supreme Court which is where they want this to go. The conservative majority on the Supreme Court can use this case (if they feel like it) to re-write Casey (which supersedes Roe) as the overarching ruling on abortion in the US. Chances are they will feel like it. If there is one thing conservatives expect from conservative supreme court justices it is making abortion illegal in the US. Hard to say how far the justices will go but they’ll almost certainly make abortion even more restrictive than it is now (or rather let states and/or the fed make it more restrictive). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/195 "2019-05-10T00:33:15Z")
As a side note, it’s a tad refreshing to see Georgia embracing the 14th Amendment instead of viewing it (and its older brother, the 13th) as manifestations of Northern Aggression. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/196 "2019-05-10T00:41:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I actually don’t know this. I’m confident there are _some_ women that aren’t aware they’re pregnant at 6 weeks, but is it “most”? I don’t think I’ve ever seen any data on the matter. Do you have any evidence you’d like to share to support your assertion? Burden of proof is on you, the Male Dean of Women’s Biology, to tell us about the signs of pregnancy that are evident at 6 weeks when one isn’t expecting it. Please proceed. This should be good. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/197 "2019-05-10T00:45:11Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Burden of proof is on you… No, it’s not actually. You’re the one that made the claim without any data to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/198 "2019-05-10T00:52:58Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I actually don’t know this. I’m confident there are _some_ women that aren’t aware they’re pregnant at 6 weeks, but is it “most”? I don’t think I’ve ever seen any data on the matter. Do you have any evidence you’d like to share to support your assertion? Seriously? No data? What about your life? I thought you were a dad? My kid was born 10.10.01. A conception calculator puts the date of conception somewhere on 1.15.01. Laura did the at-home pregnancy test on 2.9.01. Positive. End of week 4. Appointment at doc was 2.14.09, Weds. 5 weeks. 3, 4 days until the 6th week. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/199 "2019-05-10T01:08:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, it’s not actually. You’re the one that made the claim without any data to back it up. It’s almost like you don’t know any women or mothers. That or you are just being difficult. It would seem to me the side that wants to change the laws to restrict abortion to six weeks need to show why six weeks makes sense and is not overly onerus. [Planned Parenthood of Southern Pennsylvania v. Casey](https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/505/833) (the main controlling case on abortion rights today) ruled that states can restrict abortion that are not “substantial obstacles” or an “undue burden” for women seeking an abortion. So, the onus is on you to tell us why this is not an undue burden on women seeking an abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/200 "2019-05-10T01:23:07Z")
What’s so magical about a fetal heartbeat, anyway? I thought we were past romanticizing the heart - it’s just a pump, really, muscle tissue flexing over and over. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=11)