# Georgia governor signs strictest abortion bill in nation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2019, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659 "2019-05-08T09:49:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/221 "2019-05-10T04:55:47Z")
I liken it to being forced to rush into a burning building to save the arsonist that literally knows absolutely nothing except how to ruin your life. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/222 "2019-05-10T05:04:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My personal belief is that life begins at conception. Why do you believe this? Do you have scientific cites? Or is it just a ridiculous “feel” you deride libtards for? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/223 "2019-05-10T05:40:26Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Why do you believe this? Do you have scientific cites? Or is it just a ridiculous “feel” you deride libtards for? Sure. Here’s a couple of them: > [@](#): > > Human development is a continuous process that begins when an oocyte (ovum) from a female is fertilized by a sperm (or spermatozoon) from a male. (p. 2); … but the embryo begins to develop as soon as the oocyte is fertilized. (p. 2); … Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell. **This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.** (p. 18) - Keith Moore and T.V.N. Persaud, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (6th ed.) > [@](#): > > Although life is a continuous process, **fertilization … is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is formed** when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte. - Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Muller, Human Embryology & Teratology, 3rd ed. A sincere question for you, **snfaulkner** : When do you think human life begins? ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/224 "2019-05-10T06:14:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sure. Here’s a couple of them: > > - Keith Moore and T.V.N. Persaud, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (6th ed.) > > - Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Muller, Human Embryology & Teratology, 3rd ed. > > A sincere question for you, **snfaulkner** : When do you think human life begins? It began millions of years ago. Outside a lab, dead sperm or dead eggs won’t continue life. Thanks for the cites though. Im glad you have them. I certainly hope they aren’t cut and pasted from some religious talking point memo, because that would just be…disingenuous. I’ll dig into them tomorrow. Expect a response right about the time you get back to me about Timmy McV. (If someone less lazy can kindly link Ditka to my non-pit thread on the subject, thanks)\* My point is, your concerns about “life” seem dubious, at best. \*oh wait, I _already_ responded to your query. Did you respond to my thread? I’ll admit again that I’m lazy and haven’t checked in on mine in quiet a while. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/225 "2019-05-10T06:42:00Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > For the people claiming that the law doesn’t specifically punish the woman for having an abortion after the heartbeat is detected, can you address the personhood provisions of the law? It seems to me that if a fetus is a person with 14th amendment rights, then killing that person would come with punishment. Leaving the state to kill that person and then returning would also be punished. > > I’m not a lawyer. But, if the law defines a non-rape fetus as a person, then it doesn’t have to lay out all the rest of it – the other implications come along with personhood. > > **Ultravires** , regarding the rape and incest exception especially, can those fetuses be aborted any time? Are they never granted personhood? How about after birth? The law says that all unborn children/fetuses (however I describe it, I don’t mean to make an issue out of the term) are natural persons. There is some misunderstandings in the thread, so the law needs to be read. 1. Again, ALL unborn children are natural persons, no matter if they have a heartbeat. 2. Those natural persons who are unborn children and do not yet have a detectable heartbeat may be aborted based upon a woman’s choice, for rape or incest, or these other things outlined in the code, i.e. to save the life of the mother, if the pregnancy is “medically futile” etc. 3. Those natural persons who have a heartbeat, and were conceived as a result of rape or incest, may be aborted up to 20 weeks gestation, all other exceptions apply. 4. Those natural persons who are greater than 20 weeks gestation may be aborted for the other exceptions. 5. If someone performs an abortion outside of these bounds, it is not murder, but is “criminal abortion” which punishes only the doctor and is punishable by 1 to 10 years in prison. The law will definitely cause an issue by calling unborn children “persons” and cause confusion in some cases and make a few lawyers’ payday, however, it is not at all unusual to treat “natural persons” differently because of reasonable understanding of status and competing rights. I am a natural person and have the right not to be killed, but if a homeowner catches me breaking into his house, I may forfeit that right. I am a natural person who has the right to vote, but my daughter, age 15, does not. Unless the classification is based on a racial or other status that we as a society deem to be irrelevant for classification, states can say that these natural persons have X rights, but these natural persons have Y rights. Likewise, the state of Georgia, even though it says that all (again, read the law, all of them) are natural persons, it does not follow that the competing rights of the mother to control her pregnancy, while concededly very limited under Georgia law, may serve to disallow the unborn child’s right to life. But only those circumstances; not these fanciful stand your ground hypotheticals. And finally, so it could be put to bed, if a woman who is 25 weeks pregnant agrees with her friend to buy plane tickets from Hartsfield International Airport to LaGuardia and get a legal elective abortion in New York, nobody has shown me a decent legal argument (despite the bullshit from Slate) that either of them has committed a violation of Georgia law. It is not conspiracy, because they did not agree to violate a law. A 25 week abortion in New York is not a crime, so they did not have an agreement to commit any crime. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/226 "2019-05-10T07:04:46Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Georgia defines the fetus as a person. My friend Bob who lives in Florida is also a person. > > My wife and I conspire in Georgia (draw up plans, get the gun, etc.) to travel to Florida to kill Bob. I’m still not a lawyer, but it seems likely that Georgia could prosecute us for conspiracy to commit murder. > > It seems further likely that Georgia could treat our plans to travel to Florida to get an abortion exactly the same way. No, because the murder of Bob in Florida is a crime under Florida law. Full stop. If you agreed in Georgia to travel to Florida to kill Bob, then Georgia has the power to punish that agreement to break the law. As I said above, if two women agree to travel to New York to get an abortion, that is legal in New York, so there was no agreement to commit a crime. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Officer, I was well within my rights – this person wouldn’t leave my body and was taking my body’s resources without my permission.” The State can recognize the unique relationship a child has with its mother in utero. We were all there at one time. The argument can be one of necessity; it would be absurd to say that every person who has ever existed committed a crime worthy of summary execution by the circumstances of the very existence of the human race. So the analogy of a child in its mother’s womb to a home invader is woefully inaccurate. Further, and I’ll get blasted for this, but a competing argument could be made that the child was invited in. We all know where babies come from. If a woman allows a man to ejaculate inside of her, she also knows that she produces eggs which can cause a child to be formed. If she was raped, Georgia law provides an extended period of time to make the choice to expel the unwanted invader. And even if you believe it is fully accurate, somewhat accurate, or not at all accurate, that decision is left to the elected representatives selected by the people of Georgia. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/227 "2019-05-10T09:23:20Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > And even if you believe it is fully accurate, somewhat accurate, or not at all accurate, that decision is left to the elected representatives selected by the people of Georgia. It shouldn’t be, any more than the decision about slavery should be left to elected reps. It’s wrong and should not be possible for violating the bodily autonomy rights of an adult of sound mind to be legal. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/228 "2019-05-10T11:03:48Z")
That’s enough with the vitriol from everyone. If you can’t be civil, don’t interact at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/229 "2019-05-10T11:35:41Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sure. Here’s a couple of them: I see you like the “unique genetic individual” concept. How do you feel about identical twins or the looming spectre of human cloning? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/230 "2019-05-10T11:52:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sure. Here’s a couple of them: > > - Keith Moore and T.V.N. Persaud, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (6th ed.) > - Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Muller, Human Embryology & Teratology, 3rd ed. So, by this token if you start to dig a up some ground with the intent to build a new house and I come and fill in the hole you dug over night have I destroyed your house? I mean, your hole, while similar to many others, was unique and the house you were going to build would have been unique too. Should I go to jail for wrecking your home? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/231 "2019-05-10T12:26:25Z")
**UltraVires** , since you have read the law, can you explain why they define fetuses to be natural persons then? Is it just for census and tax deduction purposes? This is a genuine question – usually, if you kill a natural person (barring self-defense, war, or other rare exceptions), it’s murder. This law apparently states it’s not murder to kill a fetus. Further, if you conspire to kill a natural person, it’s conspiracy to commit, but that’s also lined out. Obviously, the fetus is too young to drink, vote, or drive. What are the implications, aside from a tax deduction and the rare pregnancy that happens during the 10-year census, of the natural persons definition? Can you be guilty of abuse if you drink, smoke, or take drugs during your pregnancy? What about if your drinking too much coffee causes a miscarriage – could that be a crime? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/232 "2019-05-10T12:31:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Okay, a little needling aside, I genuinely don’t have a firm position on cases of rape / incest. The debate is generally **so far from the point where it’s an issue** that I haven’t bothered to really refine / nail down my feelings on the subject, but I can generally see the competing interests between the innocent life of an unborn child, and the trauma a rape victim would have to endure by carrying her rapist’s baby to term. (bolding mine) It is not as far from the point as you might think: > [@](#): > > An 11-year-old rape victim in northwestern Ohio is pregnant, according to news reports, and a highly restrictive state law on abortion signed last month says a girl in her position must carry and deliver her rapist’s baby. > > In arguing the abortion issue I used to test the zealotry of my anti-choice opponents with a hypothetical question with similar facts, and was often told such a situation was too far-fetched to be probative. But now the hypothetical is real. > > SOURCE: [Should 11-year-old girls have to bear their rapists’ babies? Ohio says yes.](https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/eric-zorn/ct-perspec-zorn-abortion-rape-heartbeat-ohio-child-argentina-20190509-story.html) I recall an abortion discussion on these boards many years ago where the conservatives then poo-pooed the notion as fear mongering that a woman might be prosecuted for a miscarriage yet here we are. This time we, sadly, did not have to wait so long to see your “far from the point” issue is not so far from the point. So, in your view, should that 11 year-old girl be forced to carry her rapist’s baby? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/233 "2019-05-10T13:10:11Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > (bolding mine) > > It is not as far from the point as you might think: Perhaps, but still not there yet (and probably several years away, at least). From your cite: > [@](#): > > The new restrictions aren’t scheduled to go into effect until mid-July and will almost certainly be stayed by federal judges as challenges to such brazen violations of Roe make their way up the appeals process. If the girl decides to end her pregnancy, she will be able to. Anyways, as I’ve said already, I don’t have a firm position on the issue yet. Perhaps some sort of sliding scale is appropriate, not unlike what Georgia has, where the woman is given the more time (22 weeks instead of 6 weeks) to decide whether to abort or not. I’m open to hearing other plans that try to balance the competing interests of the innocent baby’s right to life and the victimized woman’s right to avoid further trauma. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I recall an abortion discussion on these boards many years ago where the conservatives then poo-pooed the notion as fear mongering that a woman might be prosecuted for a miscarriage yet here we are. Wait, are you still claiming that women in Georgia are going to be prosecuted for miscarriages? I thought we dispensed with that nonsense already. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/234 "2019-05-10T13:53:13Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Anyways, as I’ve said already, I don’t have a firm position on the issue yet. Perhaps some sort of sliding scale is appropriate, not unlike what Georgia has, where the woman is given the more time (22 weeks instead of 6 weeks) to decide whether to abort or not. I’m open to hearing other plans that try to balance the competing interests of the innocent baby’s right to life and the victimized woman’s right to avoid further trauma. Oh, so you’re willing to “hearing other plans” on restrictions of “victimized women’s rights”? “A sliding scale” then – like an inquiry into whether it was it ‘rape rape’ or merely ‘rape’?. How generous of you. I know I’ll sleep better at night just knowing that you feel there is room for genuine compromise. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/235 "2019-05-10T14:14:14Z")
Hell, the Catholic Church thinks performing an abortion on a nine year old pregnant with twins is [WRONG](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Brazilian_girl_abortion_case). The mother and the doctor were automatically excommunicated. But who was not excommunicated? The stepfather who raped her and got her pregnant. When I discussed this case with a Catholic anti-abort (who hands out flyers saying abortion might make men go gay), and said "Carrying the twins would have killed her, she replied “You don’t know that. God could have let her carrying them to term to save three lives.” ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/236 "2019-05-10T14:38:20Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Why do you believe this? Do you have scientific cites? Or is it just a ridiculous “feel” you deride libtards for? Don’t fall into this dumb trap. Yes, life begins at conception, whether it’s a human zygote, or the tick that I burned out of my armpit with a match head yesterday (don’t @ me, that’s just how I do it). Like an embryo, the tick has no consciousness, and some sort of heart activity. It’s on us, as the humans who will have to support that life, to decide when it becomes a thing worth valuing. Primarily the human person who will have to carry that pregnancy and who will be saddled with primary legal responsibility by default, which we typically call “the woman”. For purposes of deciding when a fetus becomes a human life worth protecting, I feel like a pretty good bright line is when (A) it’s medically possible to transfer custody to someone who wants to raise it, and (B) some person or entity is willing or able to accept custody. Funny thing about all these abortion bills is that there’s never any mention of the state banking the embryo to help the infertile, or allowing someone to contest custody of the fetus to assume caregiving duties. That’s because this is always and only punishing women for being pregnant, when all pregnancies are 100% caused by men mismanaging their semen. (Edited: or managing it. I managed mine very carefully to have the number of kids I hoped for). ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/237 "2019-05-10T14:41:10Z")
I don’t think pro-choicers or pro-lifers should be drawing the lines of the abortion debate at whether life begins at conception or not. Even if it does, the argument could still be made that the mother’s body is the mother’s body. I highly doubt pro-choicers are going to be change their stance on abortion based off of some philosophical definition of when life begins. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/238 "2019-05-10T14:53:07Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Oh, so you’re willing to “hearing other plans” on restrictions of “victimized women’s rights”? “A sliding scale” then – like an inquiry into whether it was it ‘rape rape’ or merely ‘rape’?. How generous of you. I know I’ll sleep better at night just knowing that you feel there is room for genuine compromise. Well, it is nice hearing one of them admit that “life starts at conception” doesn’t automatically preclude ending that life under circumstances of our choice. Too bad they want men to own most of that choice and none of the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/239 "2019-05-10T14:57:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I find it interesting that Georgia has a [castle doctrine law](https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-16/chapter-3/article-2/16-3-23) on the books. > > Only the conservative mind can think that shooting and killing someone trying to steal your TV is ok and a desirable outcome but a woman who was raped should go to jail for life for terminating an embryo put in her body against her will. In the conservative mind it is okay for someone to shoot a thief who is robbing them but it is not okay to kill a baby. What part are you having trouble with? The shooting of the thief or the not killing a baby? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/240 "2019-05-10T15:08:56Z")
I have trouble with the idea that tying a woman to her rapist for the rest of her life is not wrong. A rapist could demand visitation and even custody as the baby’s father. Before abortion was legal I knew a woman who finally left her extremely abusive husband. He broke into her apartment, beat the hell out of her and raped her (all legal at the time). She got pregnant Rather than being tied to this man for the rest of her life as her baby’s legal “father” she had an illegal abortion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=13)