# Georgia governor signs strictest abortion bill in nation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2019, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659 "2019-05-08T09:49:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/241 "2019-05-10T15:13:27Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I want to drag this back to the fundamental point of the Georgia law: that even a zygote is a “natural person.” All the speculation, all the confusion, comes down to this simple concept: sperm cell meets ovum, and bam, natural personhood. A natural person is guaranteed all the individual rights listed in the Constitution. The ramifications are endless, and that’s where this gets complex and where all the speculation, logical or illogical, likely or unlikely, arises. > > You can imagine the backroom talk among the legislators: > > \*\*OK, if it’s a person, does it qualify as an income tax deduction? \*\* > > _Sure!_ > > \*\*What about child support? \*\* > > _Heck, yeah–well, for medical care and maternity clothes and stuff, anyway._ > > \*\*What about if a woman is raped? \*\* > > - Uh…hmm…OK, she can murder that innocent natural person resulting from the rape. But only up to 20 weeks and IF she reports the rape to the police. \* > > \*\*But we said it’s a natural person and has rights! \*\* > > \*Quit confusing us, Richard. \* > > **Sorry. But what about miscarriage?** > > \*We’ll put that right in the bill: if a woman unintentionally causes a miscarriage, she’s OK. \* > > \*\*But if I unintentionally murder a natural person, I can be charged with negligent homicide. How is unintentional murder different if the natural person who dies is a zygote? \*\* > > _Richard, you idiot, it’s only a natural person when we WANT it to be a natural person. Now quit being a Dick._ At the federal level a baby has to have a social security number to be able to be claimed as a deduction. The social security number is assigned at birth, state income tax may be different. Some people think that aborting children of rape or abortion is okay. That is not logically consistent but a product of the disgust at the action of rape or incest. This belief is widespread enough that it there may not be support for outlawing abortion unless there are exemptions for rape or incest. Thus anti-abortion legislators are willing to make a compromise that outlaws 99% of abortions instead of 100%. There is lots of precedent on laws that punish offenses differently depending on the victim. For instance some places add additional punishments for killing cops, raping children, or attacking members of a hated group. Since most women would only get a few abortions in their lives while a doctor performs thousands, it makes sense to punish the doctors in order to prevent the most abortions. You can imagine the backroom talk among the legislators opposing the bill. **So they want to outlaw abortions?** _Yes, they do._ **But if they do that where will we get the baby blood to bathe in that keeps me young?** _You will have to find it somewhere else?_ **But I have a hard time becoming aroused unless I am watching a sonogram of a baby being ripped apart in its mother’s womb.** _Well you may have to try viagra?_ \*\* But that costs money and I spend all mine on traveling to Thailand to have sex without underage sex slaves.\*\* _Too bad_ ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/242 "2019-05-10T15:15:58Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I have trouble with the idea that tying a woman to her rapist for the rest of her life is not wrong. A rapist could demand visitation and even custody as the baby’s father. > > Before abortion was legal I knew a woman who finally left her extremely abusive husband. He broke into her apartment, beat the hell out of her and raped her (all legal at the time). She got pregnant > > Rather than being tied to this man for the rest of her life as her baby’s legal “father” she had an illegal abortion. Perhaps there is a way to deal with this that doesn’t involve killing the baby? Maybe deny legal parental rights to rapists? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/243 "2019-05-10T15:22:17Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Perhaps there is a way to deal with this that doesn’t involve killing the baby? > Maybe deny legal parental rights to rapists? You mean accepting your personal belief that an impregnated egg is a baby, then moving on from there? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/244 "2019-05-10T15:27:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You mean accepting your personal belief that an impregnated egg is a baby, then moving on from there? My personal beliefs do not affect objective reality, either the baby is real or it is not. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/245 "2019-05-10T15:30:36Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > My personal beliefs do not affect objective reality, either the baby is real or it is not. You can’t get to that point without assuming that a fertilized egg is a baby. You don’t get to start the discussion with, “Now that it is established that my point of view is correct, where do we go from there?”. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/246 "2019-05-10T15:34:11Z")
Since there has already been an argument about the definition of a miscarriage, can we at least get the definition of baby correct? As a fertilized egg develops, it goes from blastocyst to zygote to fetus, right? It’s not a baby until it comes out. Please stop calling fetuses babies - it’s incorrect and emotionally manipulative. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/247 "2019-05-10T15:54:42Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Please stop calling fetuses babies - it’s incorrect and emotionally manipulative. That’s the entire point, which is why nobody is going to stop. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/248 "2019-05-10T15:56:03Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > My personal beliefs do not affect objective reality, either the baby is real or it is not. The objective reality is that neither a zygote nor a fetus is a baby. Happy we could help you clear that up. Where would you like to go from here? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/249 "2019-05-10T15:56:51Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > That’s the entire point, which is why nobody is going to stop. If it were me, on this board, I’d want to persuade others on the strength of my arguments. I know why politicians pull that crap, but I don’t get it here. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/250 "2019-05-10T16:04:52Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > You can imagine the backroom talk among the legislators opposing the bill. > > **So they want to outlaw abortions?** > > _Yes, they do._ > > **But if they do that where will we get the baby blood to bathe in that keeps me young?** > > _You will have to find it somewhere else?_ > > **But I have a hard time becoming aroused unless I am watching a sonogram of a baby being ripped apart in its mother’s womb.** > > _Well you may have to try viagra?_ > \*\* > But that costs money and I spend all mine on traveling to Thailand to have sex without underage sex slaves.\*\* > > _Too bad_ This is certainly a good-faith, civil, and not-insane characterization of the opposition, which will definitely not get a warning. Just kidding, one of the preceding clauses is untrue. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/251 "2019-05-10T16:11:23Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Perhaps there is a way to deal with this that doesn’t involve killing the baby? Just so we’re clear, you think it’s appropriate for the government to use force to ensure that a young girl feels, physically (and emotionally, of course) the after-effects of a traumatic assault for months and months, along with the permanent change to her body from forcing her to endure those after-effects of the rape for months and months, even if she objects to all of this? Just so we’re clear on what you think it’s okay to force little girls to do. IMO, it’s hard to imagine something more horrible and monstrously evil than forcing a traumatized little girl to endure body-changing and extremely painful after-effects of a rape, for months and months, along with permanent changes to her body, if she doesn’t want this, when all of this could be prevented with a relatively simple and safe procedure. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/252 "2019-05-10T16:18:48Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > This is certainly a good-faith, civil, and not-insane characterization of the opposition, which will definitely not get a warning. Just kidding, one of the preceding clauses is untrue. Fascinating to me that this was made in response to an imagined conversation that really dealt with actual aspects of the bill (child support, tax deductions, etc) and this is- well, it’s a characterization that opponents of the bill bathe in blood, watch abortion sonograms to achieve arousal, and travel to Thailand to have sex with children. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/253 "2019-05-10T16:54:43Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Fascinating to me that this was made in response to an imagined conversation that really dealt with actual aspects of the bill (child support, tax deductions, etc) and this is- well, it’s a characterization that opponents of the bill bathe in blood, watch abortion sonograms to achieve arousal, and travel to Thailand to have sex with children. Or without them. The original text is ambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/254 "2019-05-10T16:55:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [This is the law that Georgia passed](http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/20192020/187013.pdf). Which portion(s) of that bill will result in women “almost certainly” being jailed for miscarriages? Please cite a line number or section. > > I’ll help you get started: “miscarriage” is used precisely once in the bill, on line 108. The part of the bill that makes it an offense to have an abortion. You understand that only probable cause is required to jail people suspected of an offense, yes? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/255 "2019-05-10T17:48:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The part of the bill that makes it an offense to have an abortion. You understand that only probable cause is required to jail people suspected of an offense, yes? I don’t think you understand what this bill does and does not do. Which part, specifically, are you referring to. Please reference a line number or section. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/256 "2019-05-10T18:27:22Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Since there has already been an argument about the definition of a miscarriage, can we at least get the definition of baby correct? As a fertilized egg develops, it goes from blastocyst to zygote to fetus, right? It’s not a baby until it comes out. Please stop calling fetuses babies - it’s incorrect and emotionally manipulative. This is how it is used in common language. I have two children, neither was ever called a fetus before birth by anyone. The obstetrician, the nurses, friends, grandparents, everyone always called them babies. No one ever has ever said “come feel , the fetus is kickin” or “have you thought of a name for the fetus” I have known plenty of pregnant women and none have ever called their developing child anything other than a baby. As pointed out in the post above yours the whole question is what is killed during an abortion. What is an unborn baby? It is definitively alive and human. At some point between conception and its first breath it goes from being potential life to a human life. Placing the time of personhood at the time of birth makes no sense. A 40 week old baby that is hours away from delivery is more developed than a 25 week old baby that has been delivered prematurely. A baby is the exact same being five minutes before delivery as five minutes after. Any fixed time is necessarily arbitrary. However that does not mean lines can not be drawn or that they must be drawn. Drawing the line too late risks letting babies be killed, drawing the line too early means burdening mothers. The humane thing to do is to draw the line early because otherwise means killing babies. Somewhere between 6-9 weeks is where most countries do it and that seems reasonable to me. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/257 "2019-05-10T18:33:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Just so we’re clear, you think it’s appropriate for the government to use force to ensure that a young girl feels, physically (and emotionally, of course) the after-effects of a traumatic assault for months and months, along with the permanent change to her body from forcing her to endure those after-effects of the rape for months and months, even if she objects to all of this? > > Just so we’re clear on what you think it’s okay to force little girls to do. > > IMO, it’s hard to imagine something more horrible and monstrously evil than forcing a traumatized little girl to endure body-changing and extremely painful after-effects of a rape, for months and months, along with permanent changes to her body, if she doesn’t want this, when all of this could be prevented with a relatively simple and safe procedure. I think that rape usually causes a young girl to feel physically and emotionally effects of a traumatic assault for months and even years afterwards regardless of whether she got pregnant or not. I think it is more horrible and monstrously evil to kill a baby in cold blood than it is to force a girl to carry a baby to term. I know a woman who was conceived in a rape and she is one of the nicest and sweetest people I have ever met. I can think of no reason that she deserved to be killed as a baby because her father did a horrible thing. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/258 "2019-05-10T18:34:51Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is how it is used in common language. I have two children, neither was ever called a fetus before birth by anyone. The obstetrician, the nurses, friends, grandparents, everyone always called them babies. > No one ever has ever said “come feel , the fetus is kickin” or “have you thought of a name for the fetus” > I have known plenty of pregnant women and none have ever called their developing child anything other than a baby. > As pointed out in the post above yours the whole question is what is killed during an abortion. What is an unborn baby? It is definitively alive and human. At some point between conception and its first breath it goes from being potential life to a human life. > > Placing the time of personhood at the time of birth makes no sense. A 40 week old baby that is hours away from delivery is more developed than a 25 week old baby that has been delivered prematurely. A baby is the exact same being five minutes before delivery as five minutes after. > > Any fixed time is necessarily arbitrary. However that does not mean lines can not be drawn or that they must be drawn. Drawing the line too late risks letting babies be killed, drawing the line too early means burdening mothers. The humane thing to do is to draw the line early because otherwise means killing babies. Somewhere between 6-9 weeks is where most countries do it and that seems reasonable to me. I’m a big fan of looking for a conscious mind, myself. Identifying that from the outside would be tricky, but falling back on brain activity seems reasonable. Tying it to heartbeat in the absence of brain activity (or just doing like the law says and calling _anything_ in there a natural person) tells me that the interest here isn’t in preserving a person - it’s in punishing one. The woman. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/259 "2019-05-10T18:40:52Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Somewhere between 6-9 weeks is where most countries do it and that seems reasonable to me. I’ll need a cite for that one, because [this Pew Forum report seems to disagree with you.](https://www.pewforum.org/2008/09/30/abortion-laws-around-the-world/) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/260 "2019-05-10T18:41:25Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I think that rape usually causes a young girl to feel physically and emotionally effects of a traumatic assault for months and even years afterwards regardless of whether she got pregnant or not. So then you’re fine with forcefully adding to this the pain, and permanent change to her body, of pregnancy and childbirth, against her wishes? Even though it’s very easy to avoid this? I’m not fine with this. I think it’s wrong to force little girls to endure such pain and permanent damage to their bodies against their wishes. > [@](#): > > I think it is more horrible and monstrously evil to kill a baby in cold blood than it is to force a girl to carry a baby to term. I know a woman who was conceived in a rape and she is one of the nicest and sweetest people I have ever met. I can think of no reason that she deserved to be killed as a baby because her father did a horrible thing. Was her mother forced against her will to carry the child to term, or did she do it voluntarily? Apparently you can think of a reason why a young girl who did nothing wrong should be forced, against her will, to endure months of pain capped by terrible agony, along with permanent changes to her body. I can’t think of such a reason. The possibility of this is so alien to me, morally speaking, that I can’t imagine it. That’s probably one of the major differences in our outlook on life and politics. Even if killing a clump of cells with no conscious ability to feel pain is wrong (and I’m not convinced of this), it’s certainly much less wrong than forcing little girls to feel months of pain and hours of terrible agony, along with permanent damage to their body, against their will. IMO, any moral system that reverses this is as reprehensible as slavery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=14)