# Georgia governor signs strictest abortion bill in nation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2019, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659 "2019-05-08T09:49:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/381 "2019-05-18T23:51:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ahh, somehow that makes it okay to excommunicate a 9 year old rape victim, but nor her rapist. :rolleyes: There’s a limited number of offenses that qualify as _Latae sententiae_. Abortion is one them, rape is not. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/382 "2019-05-19T00:00:15Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > There’s a limited number of offenses that qualify as _Latae sententiae_. > > Abortion is one them, rape is not. Apparently you think this is some sort of justification for excommunicating a nine-year old rape victim but not her rapist. Do you seriously think this would matter for the rest of us who think there is no possible justification for treating a 9 year old rape victim so monstrously? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/383 "2019-05-19T00:19:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Apparently you think this is some sort of justification for excommunicating a nine-year old rape victim but not her rapist. Do you seriously think this would matter for the rest of us who think there is no possible justification for treating a 9 year old rape victim so monstrously? It doesn’t need justification. It’s Canon Law. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/384 "2019-05-19T01:34:00Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It doesn’t need justification. It’s Canon Law. Do you, personally, think that this is all right-that this nine-year-old child is punished by her church more severely than her rapist? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/385 "2019-05-19T02:22:47Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It doesn’t need justification. It’s Canon Law. Maybe you’re fine with treating little girls abominably due to “Canon law”, but you can’t possibly expect everyone else to mindlessly submit to monstrous teachings just because it supposedly comes from a higher power. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/386 "2019-05-19T03:02:46Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Related; where a rape exception still exists, I’m curious what happens if a woman walks into a police station and says “I just learned I am pregnant. I have no memory of having consenting sex in the last few months, but I have a vague recollection of going to a bar a while back. I may have been roofied and raped but I can’t remember any details.” > > Do the police take her word for it? Do they try to prove she is lying by finding someone she may have had consenting sex with? Is this enough of a “police report” to clear her for an abortion? Does this encourage women to report that they were raped in such a way that the rape itself cannot actually be investigated or prosecuted? Will women shop around for an accommodating police detective who is willing to take their report at face value, give them whatever documentation the clinic requires, and then dump the report in the files never to be looked at again? Yeah, rape and incest exemptions, although politically very popular, don’t make any rational sense to me. If abortion is the murder of a child, it’s still murder if the child was created by one of those acts. ETA: And the effect would likely be to increase the number of false allegations of rape. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/387 "2019-05-19T03:34:29Z")
Rape and incest exceptions make a mockery of pro-life arguments. ---
**Author:** ![UnwittingAmericans](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d9b06d/32.png) [@UnwittingAmericans](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwittingAmericans)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/388 "2019-05-19T10:47:30Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So anyway, getting down to brass tacks, who on SCOTUS other than Thomas and Gorsuch would vote to overturn Roe? Alito and Roberts all seem to be more prone to stare decisis and Kavanaugh is harder to predict - and even if he voted to overturn, that’s still just 3 justices. You need 4 justices to agree to hear the case. If Trump is still in office for the next vacancy, he’ll appoint Amy Barrett. The Alabamians should hope it does not reach the Supreme Court, I think they’d lose. If Trump doesn’t get another vacancy to fill, that would probably be the end of it for awhile. If Trump is still in office for the next vacancy, he’ll appoint Amy Barrett, and if she replaces Ginsburg, which is the most likely scenario, then you will just have an assembly line going. Along the way what can happen is that some judge lays out a roadmap for the anti-abortionists for what would get through. If Alabama got to the Supreme Court, Kavanaugh could do that. The anti-abortionists go write a new bill and wait for Barrett to get on. The current math is very bad for pro-choice. Roberts is really the finger in the dike. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/389 "2019-05-19T17:49:17Z")
I just bought this book: [Amazon.com](https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Post-Roe-America-Robin-Marty/dp/1609809491/ref=as_li_ss_tl?crid=D8DIQ5IDNIS7&keywords=robin+marty&qid=1558272155&s=books&sprefix=robin+marty,aps,159&sr=1-1&linkCode=sl1&tag=pharyngula0e-20&linkId=793021f6f3d556ee079e40a5d19e71e1&language=en_US) “Handbook for a Post-Roe America”; I recommend it for those with loved ones who may soon lose legal control over the whole of their bodies. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/390 "2019-05-19T18:28:56Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Rape and incest exceptions make a mockery of pro-life arguments. You know what I think makes a mockery of pro-life arguments? The fact that they’re even trying to litigate this. If pro-lifers really believed abortion was murder then we should expect to see massive, unprecedented civil unrest. We should be seeing constant rioting in the streets, fire bombings, abortionists being murdered, political assassinations, people loudly advocating the overthrow of the government, and all manner of other things. And not just isolated attacks once every few years, but sustained violence every single day. Instead, pro-lifers seem content to fight this in the courts, even though they know that millions of people are fighting equally hard to keep abortion legal, even though they know they may never win. It just doesn’t compute. Their actions simply aren’t consistent with people who think abortion is murder. They _are_, however, consistent with people who think fetuses, while important, are essentially “lesser” than the women who carry them. They’re lying to themselves and lying to us. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/391 "2019-05-19T20:27:35Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > You know what I think makes a mockery of pro-life arguments? The fact that they’re even trying to litigate this. If pro-lifers really believed abortion was murder then we should expect to see massive, unprecedented civil unrest. We should be seeing constant rioting in the streets, fire bombings, abortionists being murdered, political assassinations, people loudly advocating the overthrow of the government, and all manner of other things. And not just isolated attacks once every few years, but sustained violence every single day. > > Instead, pro-lifers seem content to fight this in the courts, even though they know that millions of people are fighting equally hard to keep abortion legal, even though they know they may never win. > > It just doesn’t compute. Their actions simply aren’t consistent with people who think abortion is murder. They _are_, however, consistent with people who think fetuses, while important, are essentially “lesser” than the women who carry them. They’re lying to themselves and lying to us. I’ve made this exact same point before – the ones who spend their free time protesting abortion clinics (and worse) … those are people living consistently with the proposition that “babies are being murdered en masse and it must be stopped”, despicable as these protests are IMO. Not “pro-life” people who don’t actually make any significant sacrifices. They’re living consistently with “I think killing fetuses is wrong, but not wrong enough for me to actually make any significant changes to my life”. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/392 "2019-05-19T22:08:54Z")
So do you two believe those who call drone strikes murder are also being disingenuous? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/393 "2019-05-19T22:20:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve made this exact same point before – the ones who spend their free time protesting abortion clinics (and worse) … those are people living consistently with the proposition that “babies are being murdered en masse and it must be stopped”, despicable as these protests are IMO. Not “pro-life” people who don’t actually make any significant sacrifices. They’re living consistently with “I think killing fetuses is wrong, but not wrong enough for me to actually make any significant changes to my life”. Bingo. If legal abortion, [as the Alabama law says](https://www.al.com/news/2019/05/alabama-abortion-ban-passes-read-the-bill.html), is three times worse than the Holocaust, Stalin’s and Mao’s purges, the Cambodian killing fields, and the Rwandan genocide combined - well, nobody thought that the proper response to these atrocities was political action within the systems of each country. So if abortion is really murder, and they’re the ones who recognized that reality, then they’re the ones who are most morally culpable for the continuing holocaust, because they recognized the evil, and fought it, how? By electing pro-life legislators, in a process that allowed the holocaust to continue for nearly half a century, and counting. If millions of _people_ are being killed on an ongoing basis, it would be important enough to halt that, that it would be worth fighting and dying for. Occasionally, of course, someone realizes that this IS the only rational way to interpret the antiabortion movement’s beliefs, and so they shoot an abortion doctor or firebomb a clinic, but even the antiabortion movement has, in the past, widely condemned those persons as extremists that don’t reflect the movement’s values. So do they believe abortion is murder? Their words say yes, but their actions say no. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/394 "2019-05-19T22:53:51Z")
It’s the difference between mind and heart. Intellectually, many pro-lifers may consider abortion to be murder, but that’s like how PETA considers the killing of a chicken to be equivalent to murdering a human. It is fairly rare for PETA to get truly violent about chickens, pigs, sheep, cows, etc. being slaughtered for meat; PETA is mostly content with protest signs and Internet petitions. There simply is not the gut feeling about a fetus in utero being equivalent to a 2-year old being euthanized. The visceral feeling is what gets people roused, and it’s not there. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/395 "2019-05-19T22:55:51Z")
That being said, you could say the same about almost any cause (for instance, AGW people who believe that climate change is going to ruin the planet are being much too tame about their approach - they should be 1000x as forceful and vigorous about their cause then they are now) - but that takes us off-topic. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/396 "2019-05-19T23:48:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > That being said, you could say the same about almost any cause (for instance, AGW people who believe that climate change is going to ruin the planet are being much too tame about their approach - they should be 1000x as forceful and vigorous about their cause then they are now) - but that takes us off-topic. Not a good analogy there because a lot depends on not being prepared or expecting that leaders will listen to science instead of listening the fearmongers, who are in reality the ones that tell you that changing to deal with the issue will take us back to the stone age when that is not what proponents of finding solutions for the climate change issue are about. **[Problem has been that ever since Newt Gingritch the powerful in America made the bet that empowering ignorants will prevent the governmental control of the polluting industry, and so far, they have made a good (but irresponsible) bet.](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/climate-of-doubt/transcript/)** Unfortunately, that bet comes with extreme side effects, such as also helping elect a lot of ignoramuses about women’s rights and people that do not see a separation of church and state as important things. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/397 "2019-05-20T00:12:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve made this exact same point before – the ones who spend their free time protesting abortion clinics (and worse) … those are people living consistently with the proposition that “babies are being murdered en masse and it must be stopped”, despicable as these protests are IMO. Not “pro-life” people who don’t actually make any significant sacrifices. They’re living consistently with “I think killing fetuses is wrong, but not wrong enough for me to actually make any significant changes to my life”. So which is it? Is the Alabama law too radical or not radical enough? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/398 "2019-05-20T00:19:30Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Rape and incest exceptions make a mockery of pro-life arguments. So, in Canada, are laws “all or nothing”? There cannot be a law that enacts a strong public policy that is tempered with a bit of compassion? Your argument makes no sense. It goes sort of as follows: An abortion ban with no rape or incest exception is intolerable as we cannot expect a raped 11 year old to give birth, therefore there must, at minimum, be a rape or incest exception. But a law with a rape or incest exception is logically inconsistent, therefore: We must permit all abortions, on demand, at any stage of pregnancy. Surely you see the problems with your (side’s or perhaps your) argument. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/399 "2019-05-20T00:38:36Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So which is it? Is the Alabama law too radical or not radical enough? Too radical even for several anti-abortionists. > **[Why some anti-abortion conservatives think Alabama’s abortion law goes too far](https://www.vox.com/2019/5/17/18627968/pro-life-alabama-law-abortion-supreme-court-public-opinion)** > > Their argument is about not morality but strategy. > [@](#): > > In the wake of Alabama’s ban on abortion, many anti-abortion conservatives were striking surprising notes of caution, with some national Republican lawmakers voicing disapproval. > > Not about the moral rightness of the bill, which bans almost all abortions in the state, with no exceptions for cases of rape or incest — but about the bill’s strategic usefulness in the long march to the Supreme Court and eventually, they hope, the end of Roe v. Wade, Planned Parenthood v. Casey, and nationally legalized abortion itself. > > To be clear, most Republicans oppose legal abortion, though the majority support limitations on abortion that would still permit the procedure in the case of rape or incest. So those expressing alarm about the Alabama bill are doing so because they think the legislation might ultimately prove counterproductive to their cause. Counterproductive because there’s a good chance the law won’t get before the Supreme Court, and because the unpopularity of the law nationally could put anti-abortion advocates on the defensive after, in their view, a decade of wins. > [@](#): > > While the majority of Republicans are against abortion, views on reproductive rights within the broader American electorate are far more complex. A 2018 Gallup poll found that just 29 percent of Americans believe abortion should be legal in all circumstances, but that outweighs the 18 percent of Americans who believe abortion should be illegal in all circumstances. **The vast majority of Americans think abortion should be legal, with restrictions of some kind (abortions being permitted only within the first three months of pregnancy, for example).** > [@](#): > > And the editors of National Review agreed, writing that the lack of a rape or incest provision in the Alabama law might make “the ultimate extinction of abortion less likely” because of how deeply unpopular such legislation is nationally: > > > [@](#): > > > > We have a good sense of what happens when the national debate focuses on banning abortion in this rare circumstance that accounts for less than 1 percent of abortions. In 2011 voters in Mississippi defeated an abortion ban that lacked this exception by 16 percentage points. In Alabama, laws can’t be repealed via a voter-driven referendum, but pro-life lawmakers should care about how their actions affect the cause of protecting life throughout the country. \*\*Nationwide, more than 75 percent of Americans think abortion should be legal early in pregnancy when the pregnancy was the result of rape. \*\*Public opinion cannot be ignored in a democratic republic, and it would be a grave error to insist that no lives should be saved until all lives can be saved. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/400 "2019-05-20T00:52:55Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So which is it? Is the Alabama law too radical or not radical enough? Huh? Restricting women from making decisions about their own body by threat of force is abominable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=21)