# Georgia governor signs strictest abortion bill in nation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2019, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659 "2019-05-08T09:49:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/601 "2019-05-23T03:34:44Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > There are a number of things in a representative democracy that I don’t think “the people” should be able to vote on. > > I don’t think “the people” should be able to vote on whether people of, say, a minority religion or physical characteristic should be enslaved, for instance. Or forbidden to vote. Or forbidden to learn to read. Or forbidden quite a lot of other things. So why does abortion belong in those categories? I think Justice White said it best: > [@Justice White dissenting](#): > > The Court has justified the recognition of a woman’s fundamental right to terminate her pregnancy by invoking decisions upholding claims of personal autonomy in connection with the conduct of family life, the rearing of children, marital privacy, the use of contraceptives, and the preservation of the individual’s capacity to procreate. See Carey v. Population Services International, 431 U.S. 678 (1977); Moore v. East Cleveland, supra; Eisenstadt v. Baird, 405 U.S. 438 (1972); Griswold v. Connecticut, supra; Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535 (1942); Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U.S. 510 (1925); Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U.S. 390 (1923). Even if each of these cases was correctly decided [p792] and could be properly grounded in rights that are “implicit in the concept of ordered liberty” or “deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition,” the issues in the cases cited differ from those at stake where abortion is concerned. As the Court appropriately recognized in Roe v. Wade, “[t]he pregnant woman cannot be isolated in her privacy,” 410 U.S. at 159; the termination of a pregnancy typically involves the destruction of another entity: the fetus. However one answers the metaphysical or theological question whether the fetus is a “human being” or the legal question whether it is a “person” as that term is used in the Constitution, one must at least recognize, first, that the fetus is an entity that bears in its cells all the genetic information that characterizes a member of the species homo sapiens and distinguishes an individual member of that species from all others, and second, that there is no nonarbitrary line separating a fetus from a child or, indeed, an adult human being. Given that the continued existence and development – that is to say, the life – of such an entity are so directly at stake in the woman’s decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy, that decision must be recognized as sui generis, different in kind from the others that the Court has protected under the rubric of personal or family privacy and autonomy. [n2] Accordingly, the [p793] decisions cited by the Court both in Roe and in its opinion today as precedent for the fundamental nature of the liberty to choose abortion do not, even if all are accepted as valid, dictate the Court’s classification. > > If the woman’s liberty to choose an abortion is fundamental, then it is not because any of our precedents (aside from Roe itself) command or justify that result; it can only be because protection for this unique choice is, itself, “implicit in the concept of ordered liberty,” or, perhaps, “deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition.” It seems clear to me that it is neither. The Court’s opinion in Roe itself convincingly refutes the notion that the abortion liberty is deeply rooted in the history or tradition of our people, as does the continuing and deep division of the people themselves over the question of abortion. As for the notion that choice in the matter of abortion is implicit in the concept of ordered liberty, it seems apparent to me that a free, egalitarian, and democratic society does not presuppose any particular rule or set of rules with respect to abortion. And again, the fact that many men and women of good will and high commitment to constitutional government place themselves on both sides of the abortion controversy strengthens my own conviction that the values animating the Constitution do not compel recognition [p794] of the abortion liberty as fundamental. In so denominating that liberty, the Court engages not in constitutional interpretation, but in the unrestrained imposition of its own extraconstitutional value preferences. [n3] ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/602 "2019-05-23T04:21:16Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I think Justice White said it best: Justice White was out to lunch when he noted: > [@](#): > > that there is no nonarbitrary line separating a fetus from a child or, indeed, an adult human being. Bullshit. Moving from inside another human being to not-inside another human being represents a fairly significant and unmistakable change in circumstances. He also demonstrates that his training in in law and not science when he tries to rationalize his views by pointing out “that the fetus is an entity that bears in its cells all the genetic information that characterizes a member of the species homo sapiens and distinguishes an individual member of that species from all others”, which conveniently overlooks the nature of identical twins. If unique genetics is a factor in the fetus’s favor, does this mean if a woman is pregnant with identical twins, she can selectively abort one of them? No unique genetic information is being lost, after all. The characteristics of the fetus are irrelevant. The imperatives of the woman take precedence if one has respect for the rights of women. I’m not sure what White’s record was on this, but if this dissent is any indication, I’m not hopeful. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/603 "2019-05-23T05:35:47Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Why would you call the cops? If you wanted to give up custody of and responsibility for your daughter, you’re better off calling a family lawyer and arranging an adoption. Which would take months, probably at least as long as finishing a second-trimester pregnancy. (Let’s also bear in mind that it would be a super shitty thing to do.) And in the meantime, I have to keep my daughter in my home and take care of her, or face legal sanction. (I’m guessing you regret this analogy, even if you’re unlikely to say so.) ---
**Author:** ![Malaclypse\_the\_elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Malaclypse\_the\_elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malaclypse_the_elder)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/604 "2019-05-23T06:02:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > At least in the US, the vast majority of abortions are not performed because of severe fetal deformity. Unless you have a cite to the contrary… > > Regards, > Shodan What I wrote was in relation to the Groningen Protocol in which neonatal can be terminated. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/605 "2019-05-23T06:19:15Z")
You start off with this plea: > [@Kimstu](#): > > If it’s going to be a “conversation”, then it has to be conducted in good faith with respect for the facts. … And then you go on to label them the “abortion-ban movement” and the “anti-choice movement”. What’s wrong with just calling them the “pro-life movement”? Too much “good faith” for your taste? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/606 "2019-05-23T06:46:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > And then you go on to label them the “abortion-ban movement” and the “anti-choice movement”. What’s wrong with just calling them the “pro-life movement”? Too much “good faith” for your taste? “Pro-life” is pretty bogus, TBH. It implies that anyone not in that camp is “anti-life”. I don’t know why we can’t just say “anti-abortion” and “pro-abortion rights”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/607 "2019-05-23T09:59:38Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Which would take months, probably at least as long as finishing a second-trimester pregnancy. (Let’s also bear in mind that it would be a super shitty thing to do.) And in the meantime, I have to keep my daughter in my home and take care of her, or face legal sanction. (I’m guessing you regret this analogy, even if you’re unlikely to say so.) It didn’t even occur to me to regret it and you’re giving me no reason to do so. If you want to get your daughter out of your house _quickly_, you can do that quite legally just by arranging a babysitting service of some kind or a boarding school or any number of options. If you’re willing to involve Child Protective Services (or your local equivalent, assuming your local Republicans haven’t completely defunded it by now), you can probably expedite things if you can truthfully say there’s a risk you’ll harm your child or your child will harm you. The formal and permanent severance of custody will take months, sure. So what? The relevant aspect to this conversation is that no politician (as far as I know) is trying to make it _impossible_ for you to give up your child, saying “you _have_ to take responsibility, you have no choice, I’m taking your choices away from you.” Whether or not this would be a shitty thing to do is something I leave to you to consider, since you brought it up. I’m not interested in trying to trap people in bad situations by denying them access to legal remedies, even if they happen to be shitty people. Better a legal remedy exists than the child just be abandoned somewhere or thrown out to fend for herself. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/608 "2019-05-23T13:17:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, you don’t need to, since it has nothing to do with whether abortions in the US are done for reasons of severe fetal deformity. Huh. You made a claim that “the vast majority of abortions are **not** performed because of severe fetal deformity” which I’m willing to assume is true. I’m pointing out that the **reason** for that is that the pro-lifers have made it so. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/609 "2019-05-23T13:32:18Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > You don’t think that a secular person could say something like how he or she has viewed ultrasounds before and, damn, that sure looks like a human life in there, so I think there needs to be something more than the woman’s sole and irrevocable choice before we kill that thing? Sure, a secular person COULD say that. And I would listen to them as much as I would someone who says “That gun looks scary! Let’s ban it!” - that is, not at all. And neither should anyone. > [@](#): > > We give a stray dog more protection than that, so is it inconceivable that a non-religious person might have a problem with abortion on demand? I’m fairly certain that 10s of thousands of stray dogs are killed every year. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/610 "2019-05-23T13:45:26Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > “Pro-life” is pretty bogus, TBH. It implies that anyone not in that camp is “anti-life”. > > I don’t know why we can’t just say “anti-abortion” and “pro-abortion rights”. Because the “anti-aborts” don’t want a negative label. And they want us to be labelled “pro-abortion” like we are running around demanding that pre-born babies be murdered. If nothing else would make me distance myself from the anti-abort camp, it’s their horrendous misuse of the language. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/611 "2019-05-23T13:49:07Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Huh. You made a claim that “the vast majority of abortions are **not** performed because of severe fetal deformity” which I’m willing to assume is true. I’m pointing out that the **reason** for that is that the pro-lifers have made it so. I don’t think it is realistic to say that the reason the vast majority of abortions in the US are performed on the healthy fetus of a healthy mother is because of those who want to outlaw the abortion of a healthy fetus of a healthy mother. If you are working to ban something, it doesn’t seem reasonable to blame you for its happening so much. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/612 "2019-05-23T14:08:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t think it is realistic to say that the reason the vast majority of abortions in the US are performed on the healthy fetus of a healthy mother is because of those who want to outlaw the abortion of a healthy fetus of a healthy mother. > > If you are working to ban something, it doesn’t seem reasonable to blame you for its happening so much. > > Regards, > Shodan It’s like banning people from sleeping on the streets and under bridges when you’ve created an economic system that results in a great deal of poverty and homelessness. If you’re creating the circumstances that will lead to a lot of women being pregnant when they don’t want to have children, then you can say what you want about how you’re working to try to ban abortions: they’re still happening because of circumstances you helped create. Facile bullshit doesn’t change that. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/613 "2019-05-23T14:15:32Z")
Ah, yes, the law is applied equally: A 9 year old who was raped and is carrying twins that will kill her before she can carry them long enough to carry them to viability is treated the same as a 25 year old who sees pregnancy as an “inconvenience” and is too selfish to carry the baby to term and given it to a nice married straight couple. Neither one can get a legal abortion. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/614 "2019-05-23T14:18:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > As **octopus** has pointed out, we live in a democracy, so we all do, or at least we should all get to if a handful of judges hadn’t taken it upon themselves to decide for us. Maybe when people apply for marriage licenses, we should all take a vote to decide whether they can get married or not. As **octopus** has pointed out, we live in a democracy. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/615 "2019-05-23T16:02:03Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Again, this is the easy fight, like fish in a barrel. Which is why Hobby Lobby got told to stick their ridiculous case where the sun don’t shine. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I support comprehensive sex ed, so strongly in fact that I refused to give my teenage daughter permission to attend the sex ed segment of her health class, because it was abstinence only. (My wife and I got her some good materials on contraception and safe sex.) But I’m for a hard ban on abortion after the first trimester. How do you feel about that? I assume “hard ban” means no abortions after 13 weeks, period. How do I feel about that? I think that would be horrid. Abominable. If a 4-month fetus dies in the mother’s womb, that would mean you’d insist that she carry that dead baby until her body gets around to rejecting it. Horrible. OK, maybe you don’t mean that. I expect you probably don’t. But IF you don’t, obviously it’s not clear what you DO mean, so how the hell would I know how I feel about it, when I don’t even know what ‘it’ is? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/616 "2019-05-23T17:42:58Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > … If a 4-month fetus dies in the mother’s womb, that would mean you’d insist that she carry that dead baby until her body gets around to rejecting it. Horrible. … I don’t think removing a dead baby from the womb is what most people think of as “abortion”. YMMV, but the Georgia law that is the topic of this thread handles this issue: > [@](#): > > … any such act shall not be considered an abortion if the act is performed with the purpose of: > (A) Removing a dead unborn child caused by spontaneous abortion … ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/617 "2019-05-23T18:18:56Z")
And yet, insists on the terminology of “unborn child”. Perhaps you will enlighten us as to the definition of “unborn child”? in what respect is it different from the standard medical term “fetus”? And why, precisely, is this terminology preferable as legal language? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/618 "2019-05-23T18:25:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And yet, insists on the terminology of “unborn child”. Perhaps you will enlighten us as to the definition of “unborn child”? in what respect is it different from the standard medical term “fetus”? > > And why, precisely, is this terminology preferable as legal language? Again, from the law: > [@](#): > > ‘Unborn child’ means a member of the species Homo sapiens at any stage of development who is carried in the womb." “Fetus”, AFAIK, refers to an “unborn child” in a particular stage of development (9+ weeks, right?) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/619 "2019-05-23T18:46:31Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Again, from the law: > > “Fetus”, AFAIK, refers to an “unborn child” in a particular stage of development (9+ weeks, right?) Yeah, it’s sophistry. The thing isn’t even a human, much less a child. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/620 "2019-05-23T18:53:21Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Yeah, it’s sophistry. The thing isn’t even a human, much less a child. It’s definitely a human. See [Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fetus), for one example: > [@](#): > > Definition of fetus > : an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind > specifically : **a developing human** from usually two months after conception to birth (emphasis mine) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=32)