# Georgia governor signs strictest abortion bill in nation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2019, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659 "2019-05-08T09:49:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/681 "2019-05-24T16:27:45Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > [http://bonread.ru/lois-bujold-barrayar.html?page=98](http://bonread.ru/lois-bujold-barrayar.html?page=98) > > (The ‘this act’ in the quote isn’t sex or conception; it’s giving birth.) > > I keep thinking about this quote when I think about this thread; because carrying a pregnancy to term, whether or not the resulting child is then given to someone else to raise, does not, ah, abort that chain of causality. One can surrender legal responsibility; moral and emotional responsibility is another matter. It’s not only the body that’s likely to be permanently changed. Trouble is, that’s a philosophical slippery slope to the end of all individual rights, i.e. “if you see the pregnancy, through, I’m sure you’ll change your mind / love the baby” etc. You could say that about any potentially formative experience: “Do a hitch in the army, it’ll change your outlook.” “Have you _tried_ heterosexuality? I’m sure you’ll like it.” “Go to church, you’ll learn to appreciate it.” It might be tolerable (though perhaps mildly annoying) to make these suggestions to someone who is disinterested, but there are lots of people who’d like to see them made mandatory. Any adult should be able to tell them to fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/682 "2019-05-24T16:37:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: You opine that self-described “pro-lifers” would consider “thingy” a more civil and neutral term than “fetus”? ISTM that that vanquishes some fairly stiff competition for the title of the least sensible thing you’ve said in this thread. For the record, the reason I prefer “thingy” over “fetus” is because we’re often talking about the thing _before it becomes a fetus_. “Fetus” is technically inaccurate because it potentially implies _too much_ development! And if the term is one allows anti-abortion-rights people to be okay with using it and stop muddying up the discussion trying to push their assumed conclusion that the thingy is a “child” from the get-go, then that’s good too. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/683 "2019-05-24T16:43:12Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > And if the term is one allows anti-abortion-rights people to be okay with using it and stop muddying up the discussion trying to push their assumed conclusion that the thingy is a “child” from the get-go, then that’s good too. Sure, but I’m very, very skeptical that most abortion-rights opponents/self-described “pro-lifers” would actually consider “thingy” an acceptably civil or neutral term for what they call an “unborn baby”. I think **HurricaneDitka** is way out in left field on that one. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/684 "2019-05-24T16:44:30Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Trouble is, that’s a philosophical slippery slope to the end of all individual rights, i.e. “if you see the pregnancy, through, I’m sure you’ll change your mind / love the baby” etc. That’s also the idea behind related laws requiring the woman to have and see an ultrasound first: “Once you see those cute little toes, you’ll understand that’s a real person and you’ll decide not to murder it”. As if a woman going in for an abortion hasn’t actually thought about it, because she _couldn’t_ have actually thought about it if she reached a different decision. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/685 "2019-05-24T16:44:52Z")
Tough enough to be a parent when you are totally into it. No potential person should have to be forced into being raised by someone who doesn’t want to. If someone is not willing to take that on, they should not do it, period, full stop. Hard enough when you want to. Personally, I have an atavistic response to the very word “abortion”. Don’t like it, don’t want to think about it. Which doesn’t mean shit to a tree, its her choice, not mine, I have absitively posolutely no standing to enforce an opinion. Mother Nature, bioengineer, did not ask my advice, if She had, it would be do something about that baby shit, maybe crank up on the cuteness thingy. Maybe tone down that Urge To Merge so that the brains don’t _totally_ fly out the window. Being a father is the single most worthy, productive, and satisfying experience of my life. And I wouldn’t do it again for all the Wowee in Maui. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/686 "2019-05-24T16:46:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sure, but I’m very, very skeptical that most abortion-rights opponents/self-described “pro-lifers” would actually consider “thingy” an acceptably civil or neutral term for what they call an “unborn baby”. I think **HurricaneDitka** is way out in left field on that one. I noticed that when he was asked what his preferred terminology was, he didn’t even bring up “thingy”. So much for his supposed acceptance of the term. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/687 "2019-05-24T16:48:16Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sure, but I’m very, very skeptical that most abortion-rights opponents/self-described “pro-lifers” would actually consider “thingy” an acceptably civil or neutral term for what they call an “unborn baby”. I think **HurricaneDitka** is way out in left field on that one. Well, like I said earlier, I do what I can! Have you _seen_ what I have to work with?? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/688 "2019-05-24T16:57:49Z")
Think the problem is the presumed need for a rational discussion, like we are the County Board discussing taxes and zoning restrictions. “Pro-life” needs to pretend there is a reasoned basis for the argument to be decided, but confronted with reasoned argument, they retreat to platitudes and \*non sequitur. \* Half the time, they don’t even know they are doing it, they sincerely believe that “It is known!” is actually an argument, with firm foundations of reason and evidence. At least “I believe it, and that settles it!” has the advantage of clarity and simplicity. Just about all its got. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/689 "2019-05-24T17:31:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Trouble is, that’s a philosophical slippery slope to the end of all individual rights, i.e. “if you see the pregnancy, through, I’m sure you’ll change your mind / love the baby” etc. You could say that about any potentially formative experience: > > “Do a hitch in the army, it’ll change your outlook.” > “Have you _tried_ heterosexuality? I’m sure you’ll like it.” > “Go to church, you’ll learn to appreciate it.” > > It might be tolerable (though perhaps mildly annoying) to make these suggestions to someone who is disinterested, but there are lots of people who’d like to see them made mandatory. Any adult should be able to tell them to fuck off. I was actually using that quote to back the need for the right to abortion. Anti-choice people (how’s that for an attempt at terminology?) often talk about ‘temporary inconvenience’ and adoption as if carrying to term were something like carrying a suitcase around for a while and then giving it to somebody else. Carrying to term is a permanent change in the mother’s life; and not only because it causes permanent changes, and possibly permanent damage, to the body outside the mind. It also causes permanent changes, and possibly permanent damage, within the mind. And the person who gives birth is bringing death into the world, not only life. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/690 "2019-05-24T17:47:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This board isn’t based in Georgia, I don’t live in Georgia, and I have a suspicion that you don’t live in Georgia, so why the fuck do you think we should adopt the obviously biased terminology of those who passed this law in Georgia(besides the fact that you support this obviously biased terminology)? Once again, for clarity, I’m not insisting that “we” adopt any particular language. You asked me what my preferred terminology was and I answered your question. If suggestions like the rather settled and commonly-accepted “pro-choice” and “pro-life” are unacceptable, as seems to be the general mood in the thread, then I suppose we’ll all just keep using whatever term we like, and we’ll each have to do some mental translation. For example, if I refer to the “pro-abortion movement”, you ought to be able to grasp that I’m referring to whatever-you-want-to-call-it, and when you refer to whatever-you-want-to-call-it, I’m reasonably confident I can figure out that you’re referring to the pro-abortion movement. And whenever I refer to an “unborn child” you can probably figure out that I’m referring to whatever-you-want-to-call-it, and when you refer to whatever-you-want-to-call-it, I’ll know that you’re referring to an unborn child. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/691 "2019-05-24T17:52:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Once again, for clarity, I’m not insisting that “we” adopt any particular language. You asked me what my preferred terminology was and I answered your question. > > If suggestions like the rather settled and commonly-accepted “pro-choice” and “pro-life” are unacceptable, as seems to be the general mood in the thread, then I suppose we’ll all just keep using whatever term we like, and we’ll each have to do some mental translation. For example, if I refer to the “pro-abortion movement”, you ought to be able to grasp that I’m referring to whatever-you-want-to-call-it, and when you refer to whatever-you-want-to-call-it, I’m reasonably confident I can figure out that you’re referring to the pro-abortion movement. And whenever I refer to an “unborn child” you can probably figure out that I’m referring to whatever-you-want-to-call-it, and when you refer to whatever-you-want-to-call-it, I’ll know that you’re referring to an unborn child. So long as you’re cool with any arguments on the order of “and unborn child is a child and we don’t kill children” being received with the same sort of bafflement and incredulity as “this glob of cells is so cute!” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/692 "2019-05-24T18:01:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Once again, for clarity, I’m not insisting that “we” adopt any particular language. You asked me what my preferred terminology was and I answered your question. > > If suggestions like the rather settled and commonly-accepted “pro-choice” and “pro-life” are unacceptable, as seems to be the general mood in the thread, then I suppose we’ll all just keep using whatever term we like, and we’ll each have to do some mental translation. For example, if I refer to the “pro-abortion movement”, you ought to be able to grasp that I’m referring to whatever-you-want-to-call-it, and when you refer to whatever-you-want-to-call-it, I’m reasonably confident I can figure out that you’re referring to the pro-abortion movement. And whenever I refer to an “unborn child” you can probably figure out that I’m referring to whatever-you-want-to-call-it, and when you refer to whatever-you-want-to-call-it, I’ll know that you’re referring to an unborn child. When I refer to a fertilized egg you will know that I am referring to a fertilized egg, when I refer to an embryo you will know that I am referring to an embryo, and when I refer to a fetus you will know that I am referring to a fetus. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/693 "2019-05-24T18:05:30Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > That position makes no sense to me. What the people in this movement are attempting to do is to legally restrict or eliminate the right of a pregnant woman to terminate her pregnancy by means of an abortion. Do you not agree with this? … They’re generally attempting to legally restrict or eliminate abortions. “anti-abortion movement” should do fine. We could call their opponents the “pro-abortion movement”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/694 "2019-05-24T18:08:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > They’re generally attempting to legally restrict or eliminate abortions. “anti-abortion movement” should do fine. We could call their opponents the “pro-abortion movement”. And be inaccurate about it. The anti-abortion movement is against abortions, while the other side wishes to leave the choice up to the person with the fertilized egg. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/695 "2019-05-24T18:09:47Z")
That is an absurdly loaded term. It sounds like people who would run around saying ‘Abortions are great! Everybody should have one!’ Nobody is doing that. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/696 "2019-05-24T18:17:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And be inaccurate about it. The anti-abortion movement is against abortions, while the other side wishes to leave the choice up to the person with the fertilized egg. We use the terms “pro-gun” and “anti-gun” in exactly the same way. The “anti-gun movement” is attempting to legally restrict or eliminate the right of people to own guns. The “pro-gun movement” is generally trying to minimize the government’s interference with / control over a citizen’s right to choose to own a firearm or not, as they see fit. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/697 "2019-05-24T18:18:54Z")
The correct term is, of course the pro-allowing-the-women-the-option-of-choosing-abortion-as-a-way-of-accomplishing-the-ends-they-seek-to-attain movement. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/698 "2019-05-24T18:21:56Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So long as you’re cool with any arguments on the order of “and unborn child is a child and we don’t kill children” being received with the same sort of bafflement and incredulity as “this glob of cells is so cute!” I’m fine with this, BTW. I don’t think I generally make this sort of argument. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/699 "2019-05-24T18:25:19Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m fine with this, BTW. I don’t think I generally make this sort of argument. I formally state that I’m willing to engage in discussion about abortion with you, realizing that I will be generally trying to remember to call the thingy ‘thingy’. And making no promises about what I will call the members of _either_ movement. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/700 "2019-05-24T18:35:38Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I formally state that I’m willing to engage in discussion about abortion with you, realizing that I will be generally trying to remember to call the thingy ‘thingy’. As long as you realize that when when you say “thingy” he knows that you _really_ mean “unborn baby”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=36)