# Georgia governor signs strictest abortion bill in nation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2019, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659 "2019-05-08T09:49:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/761 "2019-05-28T14:22:01Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Why do you think most second trimester abortions happen? I’ve been looking around and haven’t been able to find it, but is there any sort of breakdown, by week, of when elective (or all) abortions are performed? I do agree that it’s more than a bit disingenuous to break up such a long and lengthy complicated process into 3 chunks and demand people to answer for each chunk, rather than based on actual development and milestones. If 90% of those second trimester abortions are performed in the first week of that trimester, I think that someone would have to use some pretty motivated reasoning to consider that to be the same as the last week of the second trimester. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/762 "2019-05-28T14:31:29Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > People are choosing those boundaries for the same reasons I am: the difference between a sea horse and a baby. There are a whole lot of differences between a sea horse and a human fetus or baby. (If we had the reproductive practices of sea horses, for instance, none of this would even be an issue.) Why you are bound and determined that a human fetus looks like a sea horse at 12 weeks and like a day old baby at 13 weeks is unclear to me. Why you think this has anything to do with the issue is unclear to me also; unless maybe you think it makes a good political scorepoint to back your position in practice, if not in logic? [ETA: yeah, I’m not even going to get into the problems with using the word holocaust.] ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/763 "2019-05-28T18:58:49Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > “All thinking people are with you, Governor Stevenson!” > > “That’s not enough: I need a majority.” > > ETA: Yes, I know it’s apocryphal. Which group are you in, again? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/764 "2019-05-28T21:25:13Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Why you are bound and determined that a human fetus looks like a sea horse at 12 weeks and like a day old baby at 13 weeks is unclear to me. It must have been in the other thread where I elaborated on why this kind of argument is fallacious. Any line we draw based on age is always going to be arbitrary and meaningless at the boundaries. The example I used was age of consent: if it’s 17 as here in Minnesota, it’s a felony sex crime for me to have sexual contact with a girl in the minute before midnight the night before her seventeenth birthday, but perfectly legal a minute or two later, as long as she consents. She hasn’t changed appreciably in that time! But of course we don’t just want to get rid of age of consent laws. The same principle applies here. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/765 "2019-05-28T23:00:30Z")
Yes of course the same principle applies here: any law written on the subject that distinguishes between stages of pregnancy will have to set an arbitrary line. That doesn’t mean that said line needs to be set at 12 weeks because you think a fetus looks like a seahorse at 12 weeks but like a baby at 13 weeks. I can think of more than one way to try to set an intermediary line for stricter requirements that’s actually based on something significant; but I don’t accept that that criteria is significant. I’m pretty sure I more or less said that before, in more than one post, including answering wherever that post was in which you tried comparing it to age of consent. Let me try it this way: The fact that a line needs to be set somewhere between 0 and 40 weeks does not in itself require a conclusion that it be set at 12 weeks. You need some other reason that it should be 12 weeks. I am saying that the reason you gave is insufficient. You can’t effectively answer that by saying ‘but it needs to be somewhere’ because the fact that it needs to be somewhere doesn’t say anything at all about where it ought to be. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/766 "2019-05-28T23:12:12Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > That doesn’t mean that said line needs to be set at 12 weeks because you think a fetus looks like a seahorse at 12 weeks but like a baby at 13 weeks. Good thing I don’t think that, then. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/767 "2019-05-29T02:07:11Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > The same principle applies here. Does it? If we’re going to assume that a principle in Situation A should apply to Situation B, perhaps you can explain why parents aren’t required by law to donate blood and/or organs to their ailing children. It’s surely more analogous to pregnancy than age-of-consent laws. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/768 "2019-05-29T02:13:34Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’m for a hard ban on abortion after the first trimester. . > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Have you seen what a 16 or 20 week fetus looks like? That is a _baby_. . > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I little, visibly human babies with recognizable faces. No uncanny valley, no monstrous affect as is seen at eight or ten weeks. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > People are choosing those boundaries for the same reasons I am: the difference between a sea horse and a baby. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Good thing I don’t think that, then. Then what do you mean, by the posts above, other than that you’re choosing your 12 week (or is it 13 week?) boundary based on what you think the fetus looks like? What other reason have you given for that cutoff point? And, while we’re at it, again, what does the argument ‘the line has to go somewhere’ have to do with ‘the line must be at 13 weeks’? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/769 "2019-05-29T04:43:13Z")
The reason is simply because: 1. It’s long enough to give the vast majority of women time to get it taken care of (not true of the “heartbeat laws” that only allow half as much time, or less) 2. It’s already a dividing line people are familiar with. A couple weeks earlier or later wouldn’t be a dealbreaker to me, if that were required to seal the deal for some reason. This is another way it’s similar to the age of consent issue: different states have different ages for consent, but I don’t hear a lot of people freaking out and accusing some states of being havens for child molesters. (If there were a U.S. state that allowed sex as young as what was apparently acceptable in Mohammed’s time and place when he consummated his marriage to Aisha, I’m sure there _would_ be such protests.) But no, the analogy I used related to arbitrary legal dividing lines. Not to anything about abortion (or teenaged sex) per se. Nice try though. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/770 "2019-05-29T05:08:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Does it? If we’re going to assume that a principle in Situation A should apply to Situation B, perhaps you can explain why parents aren’t required by law to donate blood and/or organs to their ailing children. It’s surely more analogous to pregnancy than age-of-consent laws. How about we simply compare what aid a pregnant woman must give to her thingy in the moments before and after birth? After birth, the new mother is under no obligation whatsoever to provide any aid to the child if she chooses to surrender the child under safe haven laws. Only minutes prior, she “should” be forced to surrender her entire body (and possibly her life, given the utter horseshit that Georgia and Alabama have attempted to make law) to the thingy’s well-being. But hey, at least no one’s trying to shut down fertility clinics that kill hundreds of “unborn children” for profit! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/771 "2019-05-29T09:49:41Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > 1. It’s already a dividing line people are familiar with. A couple weeks earlier or later wouldn’t be a dealbreaker to me, if that were required to seal the deal for some reason. Why does there have to be a line at all? Could “couple” be as many as thirty? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/772 "2019-05-29T15:27:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Why does there have to be a line at all? Seems to work for Canada not to have one. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > The reason is simply because: > > 1. It’s long enough to give the vast majority of women time to get it taken care of (not true of the “heartbeat laws” that only allow half as much time, or less) > > . If we’re in your theoretical universe in which everyone’s got excellent education about pregnancy and everyone can get an abortion easily, without hassle, at no or minimal cost, in their immediate neighborhood, and without taking significant time off from work: then yes, it’s long enough to give the vast majority of women time both to recognize that they’re pregnant and to get it taken care of. In the world that we’re currently living in, in many places including all of the USA although some states are worse than others, that just plain isn’t true. But even if it were true: there can be major changes in circumstances including major discoveries about the pregnancy and/or other factors affecting the woman’s health that are not discovered or discoverable by twelve weeks. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > 1. It’s already a dividing line people are familiar with. That’s not a reason. People are, and have been, familiar with lots of things that are not a good idea. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > This is another way it’s similar to the age of consent issue: different states have different ages for consent, but I don’t hear a lot of people freaking out and accusing some states of being havens for child molesters. (If there were a U.S. state that allowed sex as young as what was apparently acceptable in Mohammed’s time and place when he consummated his marriage to Aisha, I’m sure there _would_ be such protests.). Why have we suddenly got Mohammed in here? Why not pick on the US state of Delaware, where in the late 1800’s the age of consent was 7? Aside from that hijack: to the best of my knowledge no state is trying to set the age of consent at 0, or at 40. Or, for quite some time now, at 12. So it’s not a relevant example. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > But no, the analogy I used related to arbitrary legal dividing lines. Not to anything about abortion (or teenaged sex) per se. Nice try though. What you said was, specifically replying to and quoting my statement: > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Why you are bound and determined that a human fetus looks like a sea horse at 12 weeks and like a day old baby at 13 weeks is unclear to me. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > It must have been in the other thread where I elaborated on why this kind of argument is fallacious. Any line we draw based on age is always going to be arbitrary and meaningless at the boundaries. . and what I said in reply to that was > [@](#): > > The fact that a line needs to be set somewhere between 0 and 40 weeks does not in itself require a conclusion that it be set at 12 weeks. In other words, my argument wasn’t fallacious because I wasn’t saying that if there’s going to be a line it doesn’t need to be drawn somewhere. I was saying that your reason for setting it at 13 weeks was not a good reason. You can’t prove an argument fallacious by disproving a different argument entirely. Nice try, though. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/773 "2019-05-29T17:14:09Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > The reason is simply because: > > 1. It’s long enough to give the vast majority of women time to get it taken care of (not true of the “heartbeat laws” that only allow half as much time, or less) > > 2. It’s already a dividing line people are familiar with. A couple weeks earlier or later wouldn’t be a dealbreaker to me, if that were required to seal the deal for some reason. > > This is another way it’s similar to the age of consent issue: different states have different ages for consent, but I don’t hear a lot of people freaking out and accusing some states of being havens for child molesters. (If there were a U.S. state that allowed sex as young as what was apparently acceptable in Mohammed’s time and place when he consummated his marriage to Aisha, I’m sure there _would_ be such protests.) > > But no, the analogy I used related to arbitrary legal dividing lines. Not to anything about abortion (or teenaged sex) per se. Nice try though. You seem to put quite a bit of faith in polling, even thought the polling that I’ve seen has been pretty lackluster, and not really all that useful to get a gauge on what people actually want. Rather than asking by trimester, we should be asking by week. And people should be informed about what that means. Like you earlier said you were for a “hard ban” on abortions after a certain point, then had to walk that back for various medical exceptions, which wouldn’t be a hard ban. So, a poll that I would propose would ask, specifically, what week would be the last week that you would feel comfortable with elective abortions. Along with that question would be provided ample information as to developmental milestones of heart and arterial development, as well as nervous system and brain, and including what it looks like. I would also provide information on what percentage of abortions are done in that week. Then I would ask what exceptions would be permitted to that cut-off, and if those exceptions also have a cut-off. A big difference between age of consent and abortion laws is that they act in opposite temporal directions. You want to have sex with that girl that’s a week shy of giving consent? Well, wait a week, and it’s all legal. Want to abort your baby that’s a week past the cut-off? Sans time machine, not much to be done about that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/774 "2019-05-29T22:27:42Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Seems to work for Canada not to have one. Lots of stuff works better in Canada. It helps to have politeness considered a virtue and not a sign of weakness. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/775 "2019-05-29T23:01:55Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Lots of stuff works better in Canada. It helps to have politeness considered a virtue and not a sign of weakness. The same could be said of the SDMB ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/776 "2019-05-30T00:15:19Z")
The Pit _is_ polite. It’s just politeness by other means. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/777 "2019-05-30T00:51:21Z")
LOL…interesting definition of “politeness”. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > You seem to put quite a bit of faith in polling Polling from reputable sources like Gallup or CBS News? You bet I do. Two of my favorite podcasts are “The Pollsters” and the 538 Politics pod. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Rather than asking by trimester, we should be asking by week. And people should be informed about what that means. Like you earlier said you were for a “hard ban” on abortions after a certain point, then had to walk that back for various medical exceptions, which wouldn’t be a hard ban. > > So, a poll that I would propose would ask, specifically, what week would be the last week that you would feel comfortable with elective abortions. Along with that question would be provided ample information as to developmental milestones of heart and arterial development, as well as nervous system and brain, and including what it looks like. I would also provide information on what percentage of abortions are done in that week. > > Then I would ask what exceptions would be permitted to that cut-off, and if those exceptions also have a cut-off. I think you have the beginnings of an interesting proposal for poll wording/structure. However, it’s too much to ask week by week. How about going four weeks at a time? Wouldn’t that be a good compromise? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/778 "2019-05-30T03:48:05Z")
Slacker, since you introduced Mohammed, for no real discernable reason, how do you feel about Delaware and its age of consent several centuries past the time of Mohammad and Aisha? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/779 "2019-05-30T04:56:23Z")
It’s a very famous example of socially sanctioned sex between an adult man and a young child. I haven’t heard about this Delaware deal–and I still haven’t seen a cite–but if true, that is bizarre and heinous. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/780 "2019-05-30T05:52:20Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I haven’t heard about this Delaware deal–and I still haven’t seen a cite Well, it’s the [first hit if you google](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States#History) “history of age of consent laws in the US”: > [@](#): > > In 1880, the age of consent was set at 10 or 12 in most states, with the exception of Delaware where it was 7. The supporting footnote cites [this article](http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230?section=primarysources&source=24). Further details [here](http://blogs.lawlib.widener.edu/delaware/2014/07/07/the-age-of-consent-and-rape-reform-in-delaware/): > [@](#): > > In February 1889 a group of women activists presented a petition to the Delaware General Assembly with 10 yards of signatures of Delaware residents. This petition, presented by the Delaware Woman’s Christian Temperance Union, called for the state legislature to raise the age of consent. At that time under Delaware law the age of consent was a shockingly low seven. (W.C.T.U. Petition, Every Evening, February 12, 1889). […] > > The traditional common law age of consent was 10 or 12. In Delaware the age of consent was 10 until 1871 when it was lowered to seven. 14 Del. Laws 105 (1871) The latter article’s link to [said 1871 laws](https://delaware.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p15323coll1/id/53650) does indeed bear out this claim: > [@](#): > > SECTION 1, That Chapter 127 of the Revised Statutes be Amended in the tenth section by inserting, in the first line, between the words “rape” and “shall,” the words “or who shall carnally know and abuse a female child under the age of seven years.” Not sure that the specific lower bound of 7 is the main issue here, though. I don’t think that a modern society where the traditional age of consent was as low as 10 (which seems to have been the case in the majority of US states in 1880) has much of a leg to stand on when it comes to criticizing a medieval society for permitting a marriage ceremony between an adult man and a girl only one year younger than 10. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=40)