# Georgia governor signs strictest abortion bill in nation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2019, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659 "2019-05-08T09:49:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/141 "2019-05-09T18:53:53Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I am not **HurricaneDitka** , but if I may add in my two pennies, the reaction of most pro-lifers to being told that “If someone else has an abortion, it’s none of your business. Just don’t abort yours.” is akin to a child-welfare advocate being told, “If someone else abuses their kids, it’s none of your business. Just don’t abuse yours.” It immediately elicits a reaction of no, I am not going to just stand on the sidelines while this sort of thing is happening. > > Whether abortion \*\*is \*\*murder or not is a separate philosophical question. But if that’s what the premise is, (in the pro-lifer’s mind,) then the logic is technically sound - you can’t say that one should not intervene just because oneself is not affected. Pro-lifers see that as Holocaust logic; that just because the Holocaust wasn’t happening in Allied nations didn’t mean Allies shouldn’t intervene. > > Another argument that pro-choicers fail to understand why pro-lifers don’t buy is the “If we make abortion illegal, then many women will die in illegal unsafe abortions” argument. That doesn’t win over (most) pro-lifers because the math does not add up. If 1 million legal abortions are prevented, but 7,000 women die yearly in illegal back-alley abortions, then from pro-life math logic, that equates a net gain of 993,000 lives saved (assuming that the fetus is a life just like the mother is a life.) One can say that that logic is abhorrent, but from a mathematical standpoint, it’s sound. Thanks for taking the time to type that out. It helps me figure out whats going on in their head. I don’t think I could agree with that, since we have specific laws in our country that are supposed to separate the belief in a Zeus looking guy that floats in the clouds that split himself in three parts, raping a virgin in the middle east to inseminate her with himself just to kill himself, for, uh, our benefit, from the laws of the land. ETA: On retrospect, there seems a lot of the bible that is a little rapey. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/142 "2019-05-09T19:08:08Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > It’s in Section 4, part 5 (b). Leaving out the language the new law strikes from the old one: > > There is nothing regarding the age of the pregnant female. (Sorry, can’t call an 11-year-old kid a “woman” in this case.) > > Also note this applies only to females who\*\* report the assault\*\* to the cops. So a woman is raped by a popular college football player and too scared of possible repercussions to report it to the cops? Yeah, she’s SOL. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/143 "2019-05-09T19:15:32Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > It’s in Section 4, part 5 (b). Leaving out the language the new law strikes from the old one: > > There is nothing regarding the age of the pregnant female. (Sorry, can’t call an 11-year-old kid a “woman” in this case.) > > Also note this applies only to females who\*\* report the assault\*\* to the cops. So a woman is raped by a popular college football player and too scared of possible repercussions to report it to the cops? Yeah, she’s SOL. So, not surprisingly, this bill is utterly monstrous to victims of rape. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/144 "2019-05-09T19:18:18Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > **HD** , you have a penis, right? > > I ask this because I am lead to believe that you are male based on the writings here. > > If you have a penis, that generally means that you won’t be pregnant anytime soon, so you won’t be faced with the decision to have an abortion or not. (I’m reaching back to my elementary school education, so if I’m wrong, please correct me.) Since you won’t ever have one as far as I can tell, why do you have such an aversion to what other people do with their bodies? > > * * * > > I’m really not that smart, I’ll be honest. But I read the law, and I’m not sure where it says that all Georgia abortions will be carried out in **HD** ’s living room. I just don’t get why you care so much. I guess you could say that you are “pro baby” or whatever, but I am too. I really get uneasy around the idea of abortion, but (its a big but), I am never ever ever going to be pregnant. I feel like I don’t really have a say, and even if I do have a say, its a really small say. I have a penis too. > > But then again, I never understood why straight people gave such a big damn about gay marriage. I’m a straight dude. I won’t ever be in a gay marriage as far as I can tell. I mean I tried out a straight marriage and I’m really happy with it. I’m straight and that works out pretty well, but if I was a gay dude, I would be pretty pissed if I couldn’t get married because some dickhead who was straight wouldn’t allow it. > > I can’t help but frame my view on abortion like gay marriage. I don’t think I should have a say in what other people do with their bodies. I can understand the sentiment with wanting fewer abortions to happen, but hey, I won’t ever have one nor will any other penis having dude in the real world. > > I’m not trying to pick on you **HD** , I just don’t get your motivations or the reasoning you have on this one. I think we would probably get along in the real world just fine. > > Having a man tell a woman what she can do with her bodies just reminds me of growing up on the farm, and telling female animals what they were going to do with their bodies. > > CAVEAT: I did give an abortion to a man once, in a video game. I had to give Stan’s dad Randy an abortion to beat a level on South Park’s Stick of Truth. I guess it was a success? I’m a man, and my aversion to abortion is that an innocent life is being destroyed. I’m not elderly, but I oppose elder abuse. I’m not a wife, but I oppose wife-beating. I’m not a child, but I oppose child abuse. I’m not a fetus, but I oppose the legalized terminating of those lives. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/145 "2019-05-09T19:26:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > From your cite, the definition of miscarry can vary by state. Georgia doesn’t mention the term at all, so I see no reason I have to stop using it. … Georgia mentions miscarriage in the law that is the subject of this thread. I already pointed out, it’s on line 108: > [@](#): > > ‘Spontaneous abortion’ means the naturally occurring death of an unborn child, including a miscarriage or stillbirth. In **asahi** ’s story of the backseat delivery, the child was no longer “unborn”. It was a born alive child. It died 30 minutes later, but for 30 minutes it was a living, breathing person. That story is not in any way, shape, or form, about a “miscarriage”. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > … Do stand-your-ground laws (generally, or just in Georgia, as you wish) require a specific threat of death or does a reasonably perceived threat of injury count? … Generally the use of lethal force, including in SYG cases, requires a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/146 "2019-05-09T19:26:49Z")
When veganism is the norm will you willingly give up eating meat because someone else’s beliefs say meat is murder? Or will your opinion be they should live as vegans if they so choose and let you live as you believe? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/147 "2019-05-09T19:31:51Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Good question. Could the woman claim the baby is trying to kill her and therefore her abortion falls under the stand your ground law? No, it’s not a good point. It would require establishing the intent of the fetus. If you want to go down that route, go ahead I guess, but you’ll be doing a lot of your opponent’s work of establishing that it is indeed a person by doing so. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/148 "2019-05-09T19:37:37Z")
Why would intent matter? If some stranger is pointing a gun at me, does it matter (with regards to whether I can engage in deadly force) whether they’re intending to kill me or whether they’re doing it by accident? I’m pretty sure the law does not require ill intent to be established for self-defense, as long as the person in question has reasonable fear of bodily harm. Based on the incredible damage pregnancy can do to women’s bodies and health, then it’s entirely possible that a woman might have legitimate and reasonable fear of harm to their body, health, and even life. The intent of the fetus doesn’t matter at all, if we’re using the same basis as for self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/149 "2019-05-09T19:39:12Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > When I google up miscarriage the first definition I get is: > > That’s exactly what happened in the case - fetus was expelled, it died (as most ~5 months births do, because they can’t survive independently) and that’s exactly why it’s a miscarriage, and that’s exactly why you’re wrong. Despite the oh-so-authoritative nature of your first-thing-I-Googled methodology, the state of Georgia actually provides definitions for these sort of things. Let’s see if you can match up which one describes the case **asahi** brought up: > [@](#): > > GEORGIA > Live birth defined: > > ‘‘Live birth’’ means the complete expulsion or extraction from its mother of a product of human conception, irrespective of the duration of pregnancy, which, after such expulsion or extraction, breathes, or shows any other evidence of life such as beating of the heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, whether or not the umbilical cord has been cut or the placenta is attached. (Title 31-10-1 (9) enacted by Ga. L. 1982) > > Fetal death defined: > > ‘‘Fetal death’’ means death prior to the complete expulsion or extraction from its mother of a product of human conception, irrespective of the duration of pregnancy; the death is indicated by the fact that after such expulsion or extraction the fetus does not breathe or show any other evidence of life such as beating of the heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles. (Title 31-10-1 (4) enacted by Ga. L. 1982) > > ‘‘Spontaneous fetal death’’ means the expulsion or extraction of a product of human conception resulting in other than a live birth and which is not an induced termination of pregnancy. (Title 31-10-1 (15) enacted by Ga. L. 1982) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/150 "2019-05-09T19:39:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Georgia mentions miscarriage in the law that is the subject of this thread. I already pointed out, it’s on line 108: Well, your quote says “miscarriage **or** stillbirth” (emphasis added) so a distinction is implicitly recognized, therefore “miscarriage” and “stillbirth” cannot be assumed to be synonymous, therefore the opposite of stillbirth (“live birth”) cannot be assumed to be contradictory, and I stand by my usage. > [@](#): > > In **asahi** ’s story of the backseat delivery, the child was no longer “unborn”. It was a born alive child. It died 30 minutes later, but for 30 minutes it was a living, breathing person. That story is not in any way, shape, or form, about a “miscarriage”. Well, if that’s how you want to define miscarriage, have at it. I shan’t be joining you in this. > [@](#): > > Generally the use of lethal force, including in SYG cases, requires a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. So are you on board with applying it to pregnancy, then? That would be reasonably consistent, given the facts about pregnancy and the toll it can take. If someone threatened to do to Johnny Guntoter what a pregnancy can do to a woman, can he defend himself or does he just have to take it? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/151 "2019-05-09T19:42:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why would intent matter? If some stranger is pointing a gun at me, does it matter (with regards to whether I can engage in deadly force) whether they’re intending to kill me or whether they’re doing it by accident? I’m pretty sure the law does not require ill intent to be established for self-defense, as long as the person in question has reasonable fear of bodily harm. > > Based on the incredible damage pregnancy can do to women’s bodies and health, then it’s entirely possible that a woman might have legitimate and reasonable fear of harm to their body, health, and even life. The intent of the fetus doesn’t matter at all, if we’re using the same basis as for self-defense. I wasn’t the one that introduced the idea of intent. That was Rick Kitchen (or possibly another poster before him). He wrote: “Could the woman claim the baby is trying to kill her …”. “Trying to” implies intent whereas something like “Could the woman claim the baby / pregnancy may kill her” would not. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/152 "2019-05-09T19:45:02Z")
If someone threatens (or appears to threaten, whatever their intent) to use the inside of my body as their home, slowly grow by utilizing my nutrients, cause me periodic physical pain and nausea, permanently change the way my skin looks, then I’m sure as hell gonna use force to prevent them from doing this, even if they’re very small. Maybe under some circumstances I might allow it, but that should be my choice, not the government’s. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/153 "2019-05-09T20:01:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, your quote says “miscarriage **or** stillbirth” (emphasis added) so a distinction is implicitly recognized, therefore “miscarriage” and “stillbirth” cannot be assumed to be synonymous, therefore the opposite of stillbirth (“live birth”) cannot be assumed to be contradictory, and I stand by my usage. Yes, there is a difference. Do you know what that is? The CDC website may help: > [@](#): > > [A stillbirth is the death or loss of a baby before or during delivery. Both miscarriage and stillbirth describe pregnancy loss, but they differ according to when the loss occurs. In the United States, a miscarriage is usually defined as loss of a baby before the 20th week of pregnancy, and a stillbirth is loss of a baby after 20 weeks of pregnancy.](https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/stillbirth/facts.html) If you can’t understand that a live birth is something different from those two things (stillbirth or miscarriage), I guess I can’t help you further. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > … So are you on board with applying it to pregnancy, then? That would be reasonably consistent, given the facts about pregnancy and the toll it can take. If someone threatened to do to Johnny Guntoter what a pregnancy can do to a woman, can he defend himself or does he just have to take it? No, I don’t think it applies at all. First of all, I’m not sure a normal pregnancy and delivery (the reasonably likely outcome) amounts to “great bodily harm”. Secondly, there are other options on the force continuum aside from deadly force when someone is facing a threat of violence, but violence that is not reasonably likely to result in death or great bodily harm. This whole SYG / self defense hijack is absurd, but carry on I suppose. What was it you said? “I shan’t be joining you in this” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/154 "2019-05-09T20:02:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If someone threatens (or appears to threaten, whatever their intent) to use the inside of my body as their home, slowly grow by utilizing my nutrients, cause me periodic physical pain and nausea, permanently change the way my skin looks, then I’m sure as hell gonna use force to prevent them from doing this, even if they’re very small. Maybe under some circumstances I might allow it, but that should be my choice, not the government’s. In Georgia, it’s your choice up to a point (currently ~6 weeks). ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/155 "2019-05-09T20:04:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why would intent matter? If some stranger is pointing a gun at me, does it matter (with regards to whether I can engage in deadly force) whether they’re intending to kill me or whether they’re doing it by accident? I’m pretty sure the law does not require ill intent to be established for self-defense, as long as the person in question has reasonable fear of bodily harm. > > Based on the incredible damage pregnancy can do to women’s bodies and health, then it’s entirely possible that a woman might have legitimate and reasonable fear of harm to their body, health, and even life. The intent of the fetus doesn’t matter at all, if we’re using the same basis as for self-defense. If intent did not matter you could kill every one at a gun range, every chef in a kitchen with a knife, or everyone who knows karate. The bodily harm also has to be imminent, you can’t just kill someone because you think that down the line somewhere they could hurt you. The person in the car next to mine could run me off the road and kill or seriously injure me, does that mean it is okay to shoot everyone who is driving a car. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/156 "2019-05-09T20:09:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If someone threatens (or appears to threaten, whatever their intent) to use the inside of my body as their home, slowly grow by utilizing my nutrients, cause me periodic physical pain and nausea, permanently change the way my skin looks, then I’m sure as hell gonna use force to prevent them from doing this, even if they’re very small. Maybe under some circumstances I might allow it, but that should be my choice, not the government’s. So you would also be in favor of repealing all the child neglect laws, elder neglect laws, and medical duty of care laws? Are you in favor of letting all vulnerable people be killed, or do you just hate babies? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/157 "2019-05-09T20:10:40Z")
Getting back to the OP (since this is turning into yet another abortion-in-general thread): If this bill was meant to be a challenge to Roe v. Wade, it sure doesn’t seem like it will achieve its aim. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/158 "2019-05-09T20:13:49Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Getting back to the OP (since this is turning into yet another abortion-in-general thread): If this bill was meant to be a challenge to Roe v. Wade, it sure doesn’t seem like it will achieve its aim. Why do you think this? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/159 "2019-05-09T20:19:12Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > So you would also be in favor of repealing all the child neglect laws, elder neglect laws, and medical duty of care laws? Are you in favor of letting all vulnerable people be killed, or do you just hate babies? This has nothing to do with anything I wrote. Everything I’ve written about my position on abortion comes from my belief that the right to control one’s own body is paramount. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/160 "2019-05-09T20:21:07Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If intent did not matter you could kill every one at a gun range, every chef in a kitchen with a knife, or everyone who knows karate. The bodily harm also has to be imminent, you can’t just kill someone because you think that down the line somewhere they could hurt you. > > The person in the car next to mine could run me off the road and kill or seriously injure me, does that mean it is okay to shoot everyone who is driving a car. In this hypothetical, the fetus is already causing harm to the woman’s body every day, regardless of its intent. The harm is not only imminent, but ongoing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=9)