# Georgia governor signs strictest abortion bill in nation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2019, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659 "2019-05-08T09:49:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/161 "2019-05-09T20:26:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This has nothing to do with anything I wrote. Everything I’ve written about my position on abortion comes from my belief that the right to control one’s own body is paramount. If you were holding an infant in your arms, and, having the right to control one’s own body of paramount importance, decided you didn’t want to continue to support the infant’s weight with your arms, using your body’s resources (calories) and sustaining wear on tear on joints and muscles, do you think you should be free to just drop them, and let the cards fall where they may as it were? Or could other parties interested in the welfare of the infant (such as the state) intercede and obligate you to set the infant down gently, in a safe location, rather than letting them tumble the four or so feet onto an unknown surface and sustaining whatever harm comes of that? ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/162 "2019-05-09T20:30:58Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m a man, and my aversion to abortion is that an innocent life is being destroyed. > > I’m not elderly, but I oppose elder abuse. I’m not a wife, but I oppose wife-beating. I’m not a child, but I oppose child abuse. I’m not a fetus, but I oppose the legalized terminating of those lives. Okay. That helps me understand where you are coming from a little. Are you saying that you think that the Georgia law’s cutoff time is equivalent to when the fetus is a person? Or is it at another point? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/163 "2019-05-09T20:31:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If you were holding an infant in your arms, and, having the right to control one’s own body of paramount importance, decided you didn’t want to continue to support the infant’s weight with your arms, using your body’s resources (calories) and sustaining wear on tear on joints and muscles, do you think you should be free to just drop them, and let the cards fall where they may as it were? Or could other parties interested in the welfare of the infant (such as the state) intercede and obligate you to set the infant down gently, in a safe location, rather than letting them tumble the four or so feet onto an unknown surface and sustaining whatever harm comes of that? This thread isn’t about that. If you care to start a “Should you drop babies?” thread though, I would love to participate. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/164 "2019-05-09T20:36:39Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > Okay. That helps me understand where you are coming from a little. Are you saying that you think that the Georgia law’s cutoff time is equivalent to when the fetus is a person? Or is it at another point? My personal belief is that life begins at conception. My understanding about the “when does it become a person?” debate is that we’re really trying to decide, as a society, when and to what degree we bestow that life with legal rights. My preference would generally be to see it happen earlier in the pregnancy than usually happens today, but I am not particularly wedded to the idea that it must be at the point when our current medical instrumentation is capable of measuring the heartbeat (~6 weeks). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/165 "2019-05-09T20:38:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This thread isn’t about that. If you care to start a “Should you drop babies?” thread though, I would love to participate. Sure, that’s fair. I was just responding to another poster and wanted to understand how absolute he was in his “belief that the right to control one’s own body is paramount”, but I can understand why he might not want to respond to my query and why you’d be eager to steer the conversation away from that line of inquiry. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/166 "2019-05-09T20:40:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This has nothing to do with anything I wrote. Everything I’ve written about my position on abortion comes from my belief that the right to control one’s own body is paramount. I have the paramount right to control my fist - it’s part of my body. Therefore my right to control my fist is paramount, and I can use it to punch children. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/167 "2019-05-09T20:42:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If you can’t understand that a live birth is something different from those two things (stillbirth or miscarriage), I guess I can’t help you further. Were you under the impression you were being helpful at some stage? > [@](#): > > No, I don’t think it applies at all. First of all, I’m not sure a normal pregnancy and delivery (the reasonably likely outcome) amounts to “great bodily harm”. Ah, an arbitrary distinction. Easy to make when it’s not your body undergoing the stress. > [@](#): > > Secondly, there are other options on the force continuum aside from deadly force when someone is facing a threat of violence, but violence that is not reasonably likely to result in death or great bodily harm. This whole SYG / self defense hijack is absurd, but carry on I suppose. What was it you said? “I shan’t be joining you in this” Oh, I’m just sussing out some basic inconsistencies in Georgia law and those who defend it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/168 "2019-05-09T20:44:03Z")
The right to bodily autonomy doesn’t allow one to harm anyone else unless they are violating your right to bodily autonomy. It’s quite simple. You can’t punch someone unless they are harming you (or about to), you can put a baby down but you can’t harm it (unless it’s inside your body against your will), etc. It’s not a hard concept to understand, even if many disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/169 "2019-05-09T20:44:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My personal belief is that life begins at conception. My understanding about the “when does it become a person?” debate is that we’re really trying to decide, as a society, when and to what degree we bestow that life with legal rights. My preference would generally be to see it happen earlier in the pregnancy than usually happens today, but I am not particularly wedded to the idea that it must be at the point when our current medical instrumentation is capable of measuring the heartbeat (~6 weeks). Do you agree with removing the exclusions of rape and incest from the law as its written? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/170 "2019-05-09T20:45:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I have the paramount right to control my fist - it’s part of my body. Therefore my right to control my fist is paramount, and I can use it to punch children. Nice leap there from control of your own body to control of someone else’s. Of course, if the child in question is inside your body at the time, punch away. It’s too bad for the child, but punchability is location- and context-dependent. Ignoring that is foolish. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/171 "2019-05-09T20:48:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The right to bodily autonomy doesn’t allow one to harm anyone else unless they are violating your right to bodily autonomy. It’s quite simple. You can’t punch someone unless they are harming you (or about to), you can put a baby down but you can’t harm it (unless it’s inside your body against your will), etc. It’s not a hard concept to understand, even if many disagree. I think we agree that an infant in your arms, if one changes his mind about wanting to hold that infant, is now violating one’s bodily autonomy (but feel free to chime in if I’ve misunderstood you). Why then, is one obligated to “put it down”, expending the extra calories to bend over and place it gently on the ground, risking a strained back or hip or knee injury, expending those extra calories involved in the effort, etc.? Why can’t one just drop the baby? Surely you agree that’s the most expeditious route to restoring one’s bodily autonomy, right? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/172 "2019-05-09T20:48:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, your quote says “miscarriage **or** stillbirth” (emphasis added) so a distinction is implicitly recognized, therefore “miscarriage” and “stillbirth” cannot be assumed to be synonymous, therefore the opposite of stillbirth (“live birth”) cannot be assumed to be contradictory, and I stand by my usage. > Well, if that’s how you want to define miscarriage, have at it. I shan’t be joining you in this. > > So are you on board with applying it to pregnancy, then? That would be reasonably consistent, given the facts about pregnancy and the toll it can take. If someone threatened to do to Johnny Guntoter what a pregnancy can do to a woman, can he defend himself or does he just have to take it? I mean, do women want the police/court determining whether or not the fetus was going to cause great bodily injury or death to the woman? Or would they rather have a licensed physician make the call? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/173 "2019-05-09T20:53:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think we agree that an infant in your arms, if one changes his mind about wanting to hold that infant, is now violating one’s bodily autonomy (but feel free to chime in if I’ve misunderstood you). Why then, is one obligated to “put it down”, expending the extra calories to bend over and place it gently on the ground, risking a strained back or hip or knee injury, expending those extra calories involved in the effort, etc.? Why can’t one just drop the baby? Surely you agree that’s the most expeditious route to restoring one’s bodily autonomy, right? Somehow I’m less than surprised that you have no actual understanding of bodily autonomy for women. No, you don’t get it at all, and I have no interest in playing such a stupid game with you. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/174 "2019-05-09T20:54:20Z")
I find it interesting that Georgia has a [castle doctrine law](https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-16/chapter-3/article-2/16-3-23) on the books. Only the conservative mind can think that shooting and killing someone trying to steal your TV is ok and a desirable outcome but a woman who was raped should go to jail for life for terminating an embryo put in her body against her will. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/175 "2019-05-09T20:58:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think we agree that an infant in your arms, if one changes his mind about wanting to hold that infant, is now violating one’s bodily autonomy (but feel free to chime in if I’ve misunderstood you). Why then, is one obligated to “put it down”, expending the extra calories to bend over and place it gently on the ground, risking a strained back or hip or knee injury, expending those extra calories involved in the effort, etc.? Why can’t one just drop the baby? Surely you agree that’s the most expeditious route to restoring one’s bodily autonomy, right? Now\* that \*is how you do laughable hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/176 "2019-05-09T20:59:09Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I mean, do women want the police/court determining whether or not the fetus was going to cause great bodily injury or death to the woman? Or would they rather have a licensed physician make the call? Heck, I’m of the opinion that even if pregnancy was no more dangerous than a hangnail, it should still be the woman’s choice whether or not to continue. The fact that pregnancy _can_ be quite stressful, injurious or even lethal is useful mainly for trying to find out if the pro-lifer is capable of empathy, i.e. can they picture themselves in such a predicament and would they want a remedy if one existed. Ditka expressed empathy for elders who are being abused, wives who are being beaten, children who are being abused and fetuses who are being aborted, but not women with an unwanted pregnancy, which strikes me personally as a vaguely odd omission, but of course mileage varies. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/177 "2019-05-09T21:05:19Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If intent did not matter you could kill every one at a gun range, every chef in a kitchen with a knife, or everyone who knows karate. The bodily harm also has to be imminent, you can’t just kill someone because you think that down the line somewhere they could hurt you. > > The person in the car next to mine could run me off the road and kill or seriously injure me, does that mean it is okay to shoot everyone who is driving a car. Intent to do harm and imminent harm do not mean the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/178 "2019-05-09T21:13:29Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > Do you agree with removing the exclusions of rape and incest from the law as its written? I’m not sure I understand your question. Are you asking if I’d still support the law if [lines 121-125 (and the reference on line 277)](http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/20192020/187013.pdf) were removed? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/179 "2019-05-09T21:16:39Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not sure I understand your question. Are you asking if I’d still support the law if [lines 121-125 (and the reference on line 277)](http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/20192020/187013.pdf) were removed? I think he is confusing the Georgia bill with the Alabama bill. BTW, do you support the Alabama bill as it is now written, which takes out the rape and incest exclusions? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659/180 "2019-05-09T21:23:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think he is confusing the Georgia bill with the Alabama bill. BTW, do you support the Alabama bill as it is now written, which takes out the rape and incest exclusions? I haven’t read it and don’t know. Besides, “This thread isn’t about that. If you care to start a “[DEL]Should you drop babies?[/DEL] [What do you think of the Alabama abortion bill?]” thread though, I would love to participate.” 😉 Okay, a little needling aside, I genuinely don’t have a firm position on cases of rape / incest. The debate is generally so far from the point where it’s an issue that I haven’t bothered to really refine / nail down my feelings on the subject, but I can generally see the competing interests between the innocent life of an unborn child, and the trauma a rape victim would have to endure by carrying her rapist’s baby to term. I hope that serves as an explanation of my feelings on the matter (fuzzy as they are) without further sidetracking the thread into an area that’s not at issue with the Georgia bill. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-governor-signs-strictest-abortion-bill-in-nation/833659.md?page=10)