# Georgia - Pig ignorant racists and proud of it! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 25, 2015, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-pig-ignorant-racists-and-proud-of-it/732483 "2015-09-25T14:10:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-pig-ignorant-racists-and-proud-of-it/732483/121 "2015-09-29T18:31:58Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Actually, they’re a historical re-enactment society that recreates Civil War battles with their \*Northern \*counterparts. [Well, it ain’t that simple.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Confederate_Veterans) > [@](#): > > In the 1990s, disagreements over the purpose of the organization emerged within the SCV. At issue was an alleged shift in the SCV’s mission from “maintaining gravestones, erecting monuments and studying Civil War history” to more issue-centric concerns. The SCV’s new concerns included “fight[ing] for the right to display Confederate symbols everywhere from schools to statehouses”.[6] The more “activist” members of the SCV gained electoral support and were increasingly elected to its leadership positions. **Members of the more traditionalist camp alleged that the League of the South had influenced their organization’s new direction. One ally of the activist wing claimed that thousands of SCV members are also League of the South members.** News reports state that the activists advocate “picketing, aggressive lobbying, issue campaigning and lawsuits” in favor of what they term “heritage defense” to prevent “heritage violations”. The SCV defines those as “any attack upon our Confederate Heritage, or the flags, monuments, and symbols which represent it”.[7] > > In 2002, SCV dissidents formed a new organization, Save the Sons of Confederate Veterans (SSCV), composed of members and former members of SCV.[8] According to SSCV co-founder Walter Charles Hilderman, “about a hundred or so individuals and groups identified themselves on the SSCV Web site as supporting Save the SCV” not long after the group was founded, though the current membership numbers for the SSCV are not available.[9] Boyd Cathey reported in the Southern Mercury that most of the dissension had ended by 2003, and the majority of the members of the SCV agreed with the heritage preservation activities espoused by the new SCV leadership.[10] One of the main figures in that new SCV leadership, South Carolina politician and investment advisor Ron Wilson, served as Commander-in-Chief from 2002 to 2004. In 2012, he was sentenced to prison for running a Ponzi scheme as part of his investment business; ironically, among those he defrauded were members of the SCV.[11] > > In early 2005, the SCV council sued to expel SCV Commander-in-Chief Dennis Sweeney from office. The court initially granted the council temporary control of the organization, but its final decision returned power to Sweeney. Thirteen of the 25 council members were expelled from the council shortly after Sweeney regained control. Nine of the council members expelled were former Commanders-in-Chief of the SCV, a status that heretofore had come with a life membership on the council.[12][13] In February, Cathey wrote in the Southern Mercury that most of the SCV’s members had united against the “War on Southern Culture”.[10] By the SCV’s summer 2005 convention, activists firmly controlled the council. They severed much of the SCV’s long-standing relationship with the more traditionalist Military Order of the Stars and Bars (MOSB). MOSB, founded in 1938, had been closely involved with the SCV, sharing its headquarters since 1992 and co-publishing Southern Mercury. The MOSB’s Commander General, Daniel Jones, citing “the continuing political turmoil within the SCV”, moved the MOSB out of the shared quarters, ended the joint magazine publishing enterprise, and separated the two organizations’ finances. In 2006, for the first time, the two organizations held separate conventions.[14] > > **Controversies** > > **In 2011, the Mississippi Division, SCV, launched a campaign to honor Confederate Lieutenant-General Nathan Bedford Forrest with a specialty license plate. The same year, the organization awarded Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio its “Law and Order” award.[15]** In 2013, Texas denied a request for a Confederate Battle Flag specialty license plate, a decision later upheld in State court.[16] That state court decision was later overturned in Federal court, and the matter was ultimately heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in Walker v. Texas Division, Sons of Confederate Veterans, which held that Texas was allowed to deny the request for a specialty license plate featuring the group’s logo.[17][18] In 2014, the State of Georgia approved a battle flag specialty license plate.[19] The [League of the South](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/League_of_the_South), for its part, is definitely and unmistakably a hate group. And Forrest was the first Grand Wizard of the (original) Ku Klux Klan. And let’s not get started about Arpaio. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-pig-ignorant-racists-and-proud-of-it/732483/122 "2015-09-29T19:28:05Z")
Appropriate that Slate would run this [piece](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2015/09/slavery_myths_seven_lies_half_truths_and_irrelevancies_people_trot_out_about.2.html) today. So much for most of **Knowed Out** ’s bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-pig-ignorant-racists-and-proud-of-it/732483/123 "2015-09-29T22:17:05Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Appropriate that Slate would run this [piece](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2015/09/slavery_myths_seven_lies_half_truths_and_irrelevancies_people_trot_out_about.2.html) today. So much for most of **Knowed Out** ’s bullshit. No one is defending slavery, fool, so put away your strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-pig-ignorant-racists-and-proud-of-it/732483/124 "2015-09-29T22:20:16Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You apparently are unaware of what irony means. You are apparently unaware of what your own words mean. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-pig-ignorant-racists-and-proud-of-it/732483/125 "2015-09-29T22:28:41Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > No one is defending slavery, fool, so put away your strawman. It’s very damned hard these days to find anyone who will say “Slavery was great! We should repeal the Thirteenth Amendment and bring back slavery! Slavery now, slavery tomorrow, slavery forever!” Instead, what you _do_ get are statements like “There were also black regiments that fought for the south…Not all who fought for the south supported slavery; they were too poor to afford them. The South had issues with the North that were related more to taxes and extent of federal power that went way back to before the USA was officially founded.” That _Slate_ article _explicitly_ points out that the “black regiments” myth is simply false, as well as refuting the poor but patriotic anti-slavery Confederacy-loving Southern soldiers bit, and implicitly attacks the whole bullshit revisionist line that the war was about “taxes and extent of federal power” instead of being overwhelmingly about slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-pig-ignorant-racists-and-proud-of-it/732483/126 "2015-09-29T22:41:43Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Appropriate that Slate would run this [piece](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2015/09/slavery_myths_seven_lies_half_truths_and_irrelevancies_people_trot_out_about.2.html) today. So much for most of **Knowed Out** ’s bullshit. It looks like you didn’t read everything point-for-point, since you didn’t bother to address them. You relied more on emotional outburst instead of actual reasoning, and ignored context. Gosh, that’s what racists do too! I can understand actual thinking and reasoning can be hard on the brain, but the purpose of this board is to fight ignorance, so I’m here to help. Have you ever been to an SCV event? I’m going to assume you haven’t. I have family and friends who are members (gasp!) and I’ve been to a few events, so I have actual insider knowledge. See, experience from within helps with context. You don’t want to make pithy, reactionary assumptions all the time. That’s how wars get started. These people recreate Civil War battles, oftentimes with Northern historical groups who are also into re-enacting their heritage. They engage in mock battles using period weapons that shoot blanks, using playground rules to determine the casualties and whatnot. Some times there aren’t enough Northern re-enactors, so Southern members have to fill in for them. These are referred to as “gelded.” They also have dress balls, where the ladies wear period costumes and serve dishes and potables from that era. The men have uniforms and gear for the mock battles, and dress uniforms for the balls. They sing and dance to music from that era, just like any other heritage-related club would do. Some of the re-enactors insist on authenticity and only use things that were available from that time period, so no toilet paper, no soda, no prepackaged food, no batteries or flashlights. They’ll even camp out in the rain because their ancestors did so. There are no cross burnings or white hoods. I’m sure some of my previous statements alarmed you, but I urge you to remember that context is key. I said black regiments fought for the South. I did NOT say their reasons for doing so were valid. The Slate article doesn’t refute that fact, which you’d know if you actually read it and understood context. Consequently, there are black Civil War veterans. There are descendants of those veterans, and thus they are eligible for membership within SCV, for the same reason other non-whites and non-Americans are members; their ancestors fought in the Civil War. You may not like the reasons they did so, but you can’t extend blame to their descendants. I also said that most Southerners were too poor to own slaves. The Slate article says 32% of them did overall. Was I wrong? The article assumes guilt by association, that whites wanted to own slaves, because of something John C. Calhoun said. Guess what? _He owned slaves._ They could have quoted southerners who opposed slavery, but that wouldn’t have been sexy. Brigit Burke and Brain Glutton link the darker side of SCV, but they are referencing extremists who aren’t necessarily representative of that organization. Do you believe blowhards like Sarah Palin and Donald Trump speak for all Americans? Yes, there are racists in SCV. There are racists in Indiana. That doesn’t mean all of Indiana is racist. I’m sure this will do little to change your opinion, much like when one tries to reason with an actual racist, but I tried. Just remember, context is key. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-pig-ignorant-racists-and-proud-of-it/732483/127 "2015-09-29T22:51:38Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > I said black regiments fought for the South. I did NOT say their reasons for doing so were valid. The Slate article doesn’t refute that fact, which you’d know if you actually read it and understood context. > [@Jamelle Bouie and Rebecca Onion in Slate magazine](#): > > Is it true?: Here is a case where rhetorical precision is key. Did blacks serve in the Confederacy? Absolutely: As enslaved people, countless black Americans cooked, cleaned, and worked for Confederate regiments and their officers. But they didn’t fight; there’s no evidence that black Americans—enslaved or free—fought Union soldiers under Confederate banners. > > Toward the end of the war, a desperate Confederate Congress allowed its army to enlist enslaved Africans who had been freed by their masters. A small number of black soldiers were trained, but there’s no evidence they saw action. And even this measure was divisive: Opponents attacked it as a betrayal of the Confederacy’s aim and purpose. “You cannot make soldiers of slaves, or slaves of soldiers,” declared Howell Cobb, president of the Provisional Confederate State Congress that drafted the Confederate States of America constitution. “The day you make a soldier of them is the beginning of the end of the Revolution. And if slaves seem good soldiers, then our whole theory of slavery is wrong.” So actually the _Slate_ article specifically refutes the claim that “black regiments fought for the South”. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-pig-ignorant-racists-and-proud-of-it/732483/128 "2015-09-30T12:09:54Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > It looks like you didn’t read everything point-for-point, since you didn’t bother to address them. You relied more on emotional outburst instead of actual reasoning, and ignored context. Gosh, that’s what racists do too! > > I can understand actual thinking and reasoning can be hard on the brain, but the purpose of this board is to fight ignorance, so I’m here to help. > > Have you ever been to an SCV event? I’m going to assume you haven’t. I have family and friends who are members (gasp!) and I’ve been to a few events, so I have actual insider knowledge. See, experience from within helps with context. You don’t want to make pithy, reactionary assumptions all the time. That’s how wars get started. > > These people recreate Civil War battles, oftentimes with Northern historical groups who are also into re-enacting their heritage. They engage in mock battles using period weapons that shoot blanks, using playground rules to determine the casualties and whatnot. Some times there aren’t enough Northern re-enactors, so Southern members have to fill in for them. These are referred to as “gelded.” > > They also have dress balls, where the ladies wear period costumes and serve dishes and potables from that era. The men have uniforms and gear for the mock battles, and dress uniforms for the balls. They sing and dance to music from that era, just like any other heritage-related club would do. Some of the re-enactors insist on authenticity and only use things that were available from that time period, so no toilet paper, no soda, no prepackaged food, no batteries or flashlights. They’ll even camp out in the rain because their ancestors did so. There are no cross burnings or white hoods. > > I’m sure some of my previous statements alarmed you, but I urge you to remember that context is key. I said black regiments fought for the South. I did NOT say their reasons for doing so were valid. The Slate article doesn’t refute that fact, which you’d know if you actually read it and understood context. Consequently, there are black Civil War veterans. There are descendants of those veterans, and thus they are eligible for membership within SCV, for the same reason other non-whites and non-Americans are members; their ancestors fought in the Civil War. You may not like the reasons they did so, but you can’t extend blame to their descendants. > > I also said that most Southerners were too poor to own slaves. The Slate article says 32% of them did overall. Was I wrong? The article assumes guilt by association, that whites wanted to own slaves, because of something John C. Calhoun said. Guess what? _He owned slaves._ They could have quoted southerners who opposed slavery, but that wouldn’t have been sexy. > > Brigit Burke and Brain Glutton link the darker side of SCV, but they are referencing extremists who aren’t necessarily representative of that organization. Do you believe blowhards like Sarah Palin and Donald Trump speak for all Americans? Yes, there are racists in SCV. There are racists in Indiana. That doesn’t mean all of Indiana is racist. > > I’m sure this will do little to change your opinion, much like when one tries to reason with an actual racist, but I tried. Just remember, context is key. Then have them remove the ahistorical trash from [their website](http://www.scv.org/). And push for another image on their “special” license plates. How about a portrait of Jefferson Davis–instead of the Battle Flag that’s been a symbol of hate since the middle of the 20th century? ETA: Projects for the SCV’s [Heritage Defense Committee.](http://www.scv.org/about/heritage/heritage.php) And [Gifts!](https://scv.secure-sites.biz/store.php) Oddly, balls & battles aren’t mentioned… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-pig-ignorant-racists-and-proud-of-it/732483.md?page=6)