# German appeals court decides against religious circumcision of children. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2012, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686 "2012-06-29T12:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/1 "2012-06-29T12:23:19Z")
I don’t have all the facts about this, but found this definitely worthy of debate. > [@](#): > > Germany’s Jewish and Muslim communities responded with outrage today to a highly controversial court ruling which stipulated that the circumcision of young boys on religious grounds caused bodily harm and infringed a child’s right to physical integrity. > > SNIP > > The judges concluded that “circumcision contravenes the interests of the child to decide later on in life about his religious beliefs” and “the fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighs the fundamental rights of the parents”. [SOURCE](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germanys-jews-and-muslims-outraged-as-circumcision-is-ruled-to-cause-bodily-harm-and-infringe-childs-rights-7893302.html) > [@](#): > > The ruling, **which applies only to the area around the western city of Cologne** but sparked fears among Muslims and Jews in particular that other German states could copy the ban, said boys can consciously decide to be circumcised later in life. > > According to the court ruling, “the fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighs the fundamental rights of the parents”. > > SNIP > > The Evangelical Church’s Hans Ulrich Anke said: “Religious freedom and parents’ right to choose how to educate their children have not been weighed against the fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity”. [SOURCE](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/28/us-germany-circumcision-idUSBRE85R1F020120628) One more overview of circumcision: > [@](#): > > According to the World Health Organization (WHO), about 30 percent of men - 665 million men - were circumcised as of 2006. In the United States, the WHO estimates about 76 percent to 92 percent of men are circumcised today. > The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) does not recommend routine circumcision, according to the National Institutes of Health (NIH), but defers to parental choice based on religious, cultural and personal beliefs. The WHO says that circumcision can lower HIV infection risk by about 60 percent. Circumcision can lower risk of urinary tract infections, penile cancer and sexually transmitted diseases, according to the NIH, but can cause unwarranted pain and a low risk of bleeding or infection. [SOURCE](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-57461810-10391704/german-court-rules-circumcision-goes-against-fundamental-right-of-the-child-to-bodily-integrity/) To me, there’s a very interesting balance of things going on. Take away the health benefits and I can see the court’s point of view with no problem. Children should be spared from permanent body modifications based solely on religious ideas. At the same time, parents should be able to raise their children as they see fit. But sometimes the parents ideas are not beneficial for their children’s health. Then again, this is something that the child will have to deal with once they become an adult. Frankly, I can see it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/2 "2012-06-29T12:27:53Z")
Honestly I wonder if this has anything to do with circumcision being a Muslim and Jewish thing. How does this fit into the EU’s ideals about religious freedom? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/3 "2012-06-29T12:35:45Z")
Hmmm… two snips in the OP. I wonder if circumcision was a Christian ritual if the German court would have ruled differently. I suspect not. One can debate the health benefits to a draw, it comes down to personal preference. I think it’s a matter of parental choice. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/4 "2012-06-29T12:54:51Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Honestly I wonder if this has anything to do with circumcision being a Muslim and Jewish thing. How does this fit into the EU’s ideals about religious freedom? IANAL but as I understand it, the EU has a Charter of Fundemental Rights and freedom of religion is one of them (Art 10) but this says: > [@](#): > > Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right includes freedom to change religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or in private, to manifest The Charter also says (Art 3): > [@](#): > > Everyone has the right to respect for his or her physical and mental integrity. So - from the quotes in the OP - the judges are saying circumcision infringes the individual’s right to physical integrity and the right to change religion. Whether this will stand when it gets to higher courts, who knows. Art 7 says: > [@](#): > > Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications. and Art 22 says: > [@](#): > > The Union shall respect cultural, religious and linguistic diversity. It is the courts that have to balance the conflicting rights and it always seems a lottery which one any particular court will decide is most important! ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/5 "2012-06-29T12:59:21Z")
I think in 100 years we’re all going to look back on ritual circumcision and slap our foreheads. In the short term, I worry about it going underground. People with religious convictions aren’t going to suddenly stop. ---
**Author:** ![lew\_cody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e274bd/32.png) [@lew\_cody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lew_cody)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/6 "2012-06-29T14:03:03Z")
This is something I have thought carefully about for more than 10 years, and I’ve come to the conclusion that genital excision (of either gender) is indefensible in a democratic society. _My_ freedom of religion ends at _your_ body. I have the right to teach my (hypothetical) kids whatever religious beliefs or non-beliefs I wish, just as I have the right to educate them on other matters as well. But permanently removing bodily tissues as part of religious indoctrination seems to me to contradict an individual’s right of self-determination. (And, for that matter, so does any other kind of religiously-encouraged bodily abuse, including molestation and violent physical discipline.) Parents who make excisions or slices on their child’s body for non-religious reasons are usually treated with revulsion. If an obscure religious sect mandated that its children’s earlobes be cut off, its members would be prosecuted. Why should any other religions or cultures be given a pass? ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/7 "2012-06-29T14:47:11Z")
> [@lew\_cody](#): > > This is something I have thought carefully about for more than 10 years, and I’ve come to the conclusion that genital excision (of either gender) is indefensible in a democratic society. _My_ freedom of religion ends at _your_ body. I have the right to teach my (hypothetical) kids whatever religious beliefs or non-beliefs I wish, just as I have the right to educate them on other matters as well. But permanently removing bodily tissues as part of religious indoctrination seems to me to contradict an individual’s right of self-determination. (And, for that matter, so does any other kind of religiously-encouraged bodily abuse, including molestation and violent physical discipline.) > > Parents who make excisions or slices on their child’s body for non-religious reasons are usually treated with revulsion. If an obscure religious sect mandated that its children’s earlobes be cut off, its members would be prosecuted. Why should any other religions or cultures be given a pass? Because they are the majority and the majority will have it’s way God DAMN IT! Or something like that. Why can’t circumcision wait until the child can make up his own mind? If the answer requires reading from a passage of bronze age sheep herder lore and mysticism, well that’s your answer. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/8 "2012-06-29T14:52:18Z")
I had to giggle at your “SNIP” in the quotes. Anyway. I don’t think Jews will stop circumcising their boys. I wouldn’t. And I’m not sure how many Jews and Muslims are in Cologne. According to Wiki, about 4,000-5,000 Jews. As for the rest of the German states…I mean, the larger EU has never really appealed to me as a place that values religious freedom. So I assume they’ll fallow suit. But I’m an American, so I’m spoiled. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/9 "2012-06-29T14:53:46Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I think in 100 years we’re all going to look back on ritual circumcision and slap our foreheads. \*\*In the short term, I worry about it going underground. \*\* People with religious convictions aren’t going to suddenly stop. Underground? In Jewish circles, no doc is necessary. A [mohel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohel) does it for a living. Your kitchen table, the shul, you name it. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/10 "2012-06-29T14:54:31Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > I had to giggle at your “SNIP” in the quotes. Anyway. I don’t think Jews will stop circumcising their boys. I wouldn’t. And I’m not sure how many Jews and Muslims are in Cologne. According to Wiki, about 4,000-5,000 Jews. > > As for the rest of the German states…I mean, the larger EU has never really appealed to me as a place that values religious freedom. So I assume they’ll fallow suit. > > But I’m an American, so I’m spoiled. 🙂 Since when does religious freedom include messing with other people’s bodies for the single reason of enforcing those religious beliefs? Religious freedom should also be freedom FROM religion. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/11 "2012-06-29T14:56:17Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Since when does religious freedom include messing with other people’s bodies for the single reason of enforcing those religious beliefs? > > Religious freedom should also be freedom FROM religion. Adults have always had a considerable amount of say-so in a child’s upbringing. In Judaism (and I assume Islam), you are _required_ to make these decisions for your child. I’m wondering if you can spank your child in Cologne but not have him circumcised. I’m not going to get into an argument over it. I was commenting on the ruling. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/12 "2012-06-29T15:08:54Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > Underground? In Jewish circles, no doc is necessary. A [mohel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohel) does it for a living. Your kitchen table, the shul, you name it. And if mohelim can’t operate in public? Presumably even they know about sterile tools and proper procedures. I would guess that many if not most of them have some kind of medical background. If they’re not free to practice their craft in public, they’ll disappear and be replaced by less savory types who are willing to risk jailtime to make a buck. Or by people who just really enjoy cutting up dicks. I’m not sure I’d want either of those types around my kids’ junk, if I were so inclined. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/13 "2012-06-29T15:16:41Z")
Good, religious freedom doesn’t extent to mutilating an infant even if it is your own. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/14 "2012-06-29T15:19:39Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > And if mohelim can’t operate in public? Presumably even they know about sterile tools and proper procedures. I would guess that many if not most of them have some kind of medical background. If they’re not free to practice their craft in public, they’ll disappear and be replaced by less savory types who are willing to risk jailtime to make a buck. Or by people who just really enjoy cutting up dicks. I’m not sure I’d want either of those types around my kids’ junk, if I were so inclined. They have no medical training, and even reject sterile technique out of tradition. There was a mohel in the USA giving kids herpes by putting his mouth on their penile wounds. > **[Baby Dies of Herpes in Ritual Circumcision By Orthodox Jews](https://abcnews.go.com/Health/baby-dies-herpes-virus-ritual-circumcision-nyc-orthodox/story?id=15888618)** > > Practitioner or "mohel" removes the foreskin then sucks the wound clean in a 5,000-year-old ritual that has alarmed city health officials. > **[Banned Herpes Mohel Still Circumcising Babies](https://gothamist.com/news/banned-herpes-mohel-still-circumcising-babies)** > > Prosecutors are investigating Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer in connection to an infant's herpes-related death—and it turns out that Fischer has continued performing circumcisions despite a court order to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/15 "2012-06-29T15:22:49Z")
> [@lew\_cody](#): > > Parents who make excisions or slices on their child’s body for non-religious reasons are usually treated with revulsion. If an obscure religious sect mandated that its children’s earlobes be cut off, its members would be prosecuted. Why should any other religions or cultures be given a pass? I don’t think it’s treated with revulsion when parents have their children’s earlobes _pierced_, although it may be a mildly controversial thing to do to an infant. I haven’t heard of other “excisions or slices” actually being done, so I can’t say how they’re “usually treated.” Plenty of boys have been circumcized for non-religious (e.g. health) reasons instead of (or in addition to) religious ones. Their parents or doctors may have been misguided in choosing to have them circumcized, but unless you’re an anti-vaccination nut, there’s nothing inherently wrong with parents or doctors choosing to have what they believe to be beneficial medical techniques performed on infants. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/16 "2012-06-29T15:23:19Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > Adults have always had a considerable amount of say-so in a child’s upbringing. In Judaism (and I assume Islam), you are _required_ to make these decisions for your child. > > I’m wondering if you can spank your child in Cologne but not have him circumcised. > > I’m not going to get into an argument over it. I was commenting on the ruling. Speaking as someone who was essentially coerced into being Confirmed as a Roman Catholic, I can only imagine how much MORE annoyed with my parents I’d be if they had decided for me before I was able to decide for myself that I would be permanently physically injured in support of their religion. This is so obviously completely different from spanking that it’s disingenuous of you, IMHO, to bring it up. Don’t Conservative/Orthodox conversions of adult males require a ritual/symbolic circumcision with at minimum drawing of blood, anyway? It looks like, in Germany, some male children are going to have to elect for the real thing when and if the time comes. I can’t say I have a problem with that. It seems to me that any religion that was at all sure of itself would leave ALL these decisions to adulthood. (Catholicism and Judaism, with confirmation and bar/bat mitzvah, both try in some regards and fail in some regards.) Full disclosure–my wife and daughter are both Jewish. Had we had a son, it would have been very interesting in my household for a while. Regardless of that, she’s not so much as getting her ears pierced until she’s old enough to decide that’s what she wants. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/17 "2012-06-29T15:26:28Z")
Non-medical genital mutilation is indefensible in our society and there is no compelling reason for religion to get a free pass. If you think circumcision is an important part of your religion and can justify it on those grounds then what is stopping people explaining that to their children and letting them make the decision themselves? Are they worried that a rational adult might see it as a bad idea? I think it is an excellent decision. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/18 "2012-06-29T15:32:08Z")
> [@grude](#): > > They have no medical training, and even reject sterile technique out of tradition. There was a mohel in the USA giving kids herpes by putting his mouth on their penile wounds. > > [Baby Dies of Herpes in Ritual Circumcision By Orthodox Jews - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/Health/baby-dies-herpes-virus-ritual-circumcision-nyc-orthodox/story?id=15888618) > > [Banned Herpes Mohel Still Circumcising Babies - Gothamist](http://gothamist.com/2012/03/14/authorities_investigating_herpes_mo.php) Yes, there are orthodox outliers. No medical training is _required_, but I suspect that [this is typical](http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/28632/making-the-cut/): > [@](#): > > It was because of misconceptions like Gelbaum’s that the Reform and Conservative movement began training mohels in New York and Los Angeles about 20 years ago. **The programs have since graduated about 375 trained mohels, all of whom came into the program with medical backgrounds.** All of the mohelim that I’ve seen advertising their services tout their medical experience. Your experiences may be different, but to say that mohelim have no medical training isn’t very accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/19 "2012-06-29T15:41:03Z")
The AIDS statistics as I understand them are more a consequence of lack of access to clean water than the practice of circumcision. And I see no mention in the OP of the diseases that are protected against by the foreskin. Seems like a no-brainer today. Cut off a part of an infants anatomy? Or your God is going to do… what? Gimme a break. Barbarism should lose every debate. The standard policy ought to be for circumcised individuals to shun their parents as soon as they are able. People considering circumcising their children should fuck the fuck off (for lack of the formal legal terminology). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/20 "2012-06-29T15:50:28Z")
It sounds like Jewish and Muslim parents can still circumcise their children, they just have to say they’re doing it for medical reasons. Considering that probably around 90% of all American parents circumcise their children for non-religious reasons this shouldn’t be a problem. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686.md?page=2)