# German appeals court decides against religious circumcision of children. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2012, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686 "2012-06-29T12:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/181 "2012-07-02T23:08:48Z")
Do you all agree with the practice of ritual scarring/marking of infants? It causes no memorable trauma and doesn’t interfere with any bodily functions. It’s only effect is a permanent cosmetic change. > [@Zeriel](#): > > I would say such a thing, if there were such a thing as “female circumcision” that had demonstrated minor health benefits and insignificant trauma, with no apparent loss of sexual function to the woman. No one circumcises their kids for the supposed minor health benefits, most of which would actually end up being detrimental. Are all female circumcisions done on older girls? There’s a lessening of sexual function. This is even one of the promoted benefits in the past. Do all female circumcisions result in a complete loss of sexual function? ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/182 "2012-07-03T01:39:53Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I would say such a thing, if there were such a thing as “female circumcision” that had demonstrated minor health benefits and insignificant trauma, with no apparent loss of sexual function to the woman. > > Since there aren’t so far as I know any such procedures, all analogies with male circumcision are basically bullshit. > > I’m circumcised. It’s entirely possible I’ve lost some fractional percentage of my ability to feel sexual pleasure because of it. There is no universe in which that procedure is any way comparable to removing all or part of the clitoris, or sewing most of the vaginal opening shut, and frankly it just makes the anti-circumcision side of the debate look somewhere between ridiculous and blindly selfish to compare the two (or compare it with “rape”, as was also done upthread). WTF are you talking about? The prevalent forms of ‘female genital mutilation’ practiced in some areas involve a far milder degree of modification to the genitals than circumcision of male infants does. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/183 "2012-07-03T03:07:30Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > WTF are you talking about? The prevalent forms of ‘female genital mutilation’ practiced in some areas involve a far milder degree of modification to the genitals than circumcision of male infants does. As I said, “since there aren’t so far as I know any such procedures”. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/184 "2012-07-03T03:52:51Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > WTF are you talking about? The prevalent forms of ‘female genital mutilation’ practiced in some areas involve a far milder degree of modification to the genitals than circumcision of male infants does. Cutting the clitoris off, even partially, is NOT a “milder degree”, in any way, shape or form to male circumcision. Men can still function sexually. I’d say the vast majority of women have a difficult time reaching orgasm without some form of clitoral stimulation. And the reasons FOR it, are far, far more sinister. And you bloody well know it. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/185 "2012-07-03T04:05:23Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Cutting the clitoris off, even partially, is NOT a “milder degree”, in any way, shape or form to male circumcision. Men can still function sexually. I’d say the vast majority of women have a difficult time reaching orgasm without some form of clitoral stimulation. > > And the reasons FOR it, are far, far more sinister. And you bloody well know it. Uh, you’re the one who brought up clitoridectomy, not me. If you’re trying to argue about clitoridectomy I have no freaking idea why you responded to my post. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/186 "2012-07-03T04:47:25Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > Uh, you’re the one who brought up clitoridectomy, not me. If you’re trying to argue about clitoridectomy I have no freaking idea why you responded to my post. > [@](#): > > The prevalent forms of ‘female genital mutilation’ practiced in some areas involve a far milder degree of modification to the genitals than circumcision of male infants does. What, types of FGM do you know of that are milder than male circumcision. Because the “mildest form” of FGM does INDEED involve at [least partial removal of the clitoral hood](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation#Types_I_and_II). If you know of something different, let’s hear it. And pray tell me, if there is any other purpose than to prevent a woman from enjoying sex, (in the belief that it will “keep her pure”.) ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/187 "2012-07-03T04:51:20Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And pray tell me, if there is any other purpose than to prevent a woman from enjoying sex, (in the belief that it will “keep her pure”.) Your own link has a host of examples, some of which are propagated by and defended by the women themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/188 "2012-07-03T05:27:21Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > Your own link has a host of examples, some of which are **propagated by and defended by the women themselves**. Is that bolded section supposed to be an argument of any kind? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/189 "2012-07-03T05:40:40Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Men can still function sexually. Boy am I ever reassured that the utilitarian aspect of my sexuality has been so carefully preserved! > [@Zeriel](#): > > The anger and sense of violation are basically misplaced for the simple plain fact that no one was circumcised in a first world nation because their parents wished them harm or wanted to hurt them. You were circumcised because they either were going along with a social convention they were told was harmless, or because they made a conscious decision to make you a part of a community they care about, or because they made a conscious decision evaluating the minor but extant health benefits of circumcision. It was not because they wanted to hurt you and take away your sexual functioning, and it was not because it gave them pleasure and so they disregarded your autonomy. But that leaves out the most probable of all the real reasons for the prevalence of circumcision in America: money. > [@](#): > > it just means I think certain comparisons (like the rape one) are vastly overblown. Well let’s look at it. See [rape](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape): > [@](#): > > It is defined in many jurisdictions as sexual intercourse, or other forms of sexual penetration, of one person by another person without the consent of the victim. One might describe the insertion of a scalpel into the foreskin in order to remove it as ‘sexual penetration’. Others might object, and maybe they’d be happier defining it as [sexual assault](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault): > [@](#): > > This includes rape (such as forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration), inappropriate touching, forced kissing, child sexual abuse, or the torture of the victim in a sexual manner. where the desired effects of circumcision amount to ‘the torture of the victim in a sexual manner’ even if the immediate perpetrators are not aware of that. FWIW I termed it ‘ritual genital mutilation’ and intended the other verbiage as metaphor. IANAL and may not get the language right. > [@cmkeller](#): > > Given that circumcised males do not seem to place any sort of burden on the state more so than uncircumcised males, I think that the American government or one of the states would be hard-pressed to find a compelling state interest in prohibiting the ritual of infant circumcision. I realize you were not talking to me, but I notice you framed that with ‘given’. What amounts to a ‘burden on the state’? > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Wow…I’ll get on the phone right now and tell my mom to fuck off! The bitch! Yah, I know. A lot of people don’t have the stomach for it. Go ahead an PM me her number and I’ll take care of it. That probably comes across as inappropriate, but if it is [good enough for Jesus’ mother](http://bible.cc/john/2-4.htm) it is good enough for yours. The commentators would like to dodge the issue and you may persuade me if I’m wrong, but it sure looks to me like Jesus told His mother to fuck off, albeit in gentler terms. So in that way at least this isn’t a prohibited thing to do. Perhaps more importantly, if we are ever to see the end of butchery and barbarism it will only be because there are consequences attached to them. It doesn’t really matter how good an impersonation of the Queen of England the perpetrator performs after the fact. If they are _responsible_ for circumcising someone in this day and age without a demonstrable medical reason then they ought to be ready to receive a particular piece of my mind, the one that resembles a squid with 40,000 legs, all with the feet cut off for no reason whatsoever, stirring up needless anger. Telling your mom to fuck off is the right thing to do, or, forcing this social change is important enough that it is worth it to tell your mother to fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/190 "2012-07-03T05:56:48Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Boy am I ever reassured that the utilitarian aspect of my sexuality has been so carefully preserved! Well, when you compare it to FGM, perhaps then you SHOULD consider that, and realize just how fucking disgusting it is. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/191 "2012-07-03T06:06:02Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Well, when you compare it to FGM, perhaps then you SHOULD consider that, and realize just how fucking disgusting it is. But I was very careful to point out that I might be accused of demagoguery if I compared my circumcision to FGM! I termed it _Ritual_ genital mutilation and was very careful in defining it. I really tried to address this concern in advance. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/192 "2012-07-03T08:04:35Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > What, types of FGM do you know of that are milder than male circumcision. Because the “mildest form” of FGM does INDEED involve at [least partial removal of the clitoral hood](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation#Types_I_and_II). If you know of something different, let’s hear it. Even if what you just said hadn’t been a stupidly and pathetically false statement, if you had any idea how genitalia worked, you’d be able to figure out that “partial removal of the clitoral hood” is, anatomically, _at most_ equivalent to the normal circumcision procedure performed on the penis. But share more opinions, please. :rolleyes: I don’t even care, because you all should keep your knives away from your babies, but “female genital mutilation” as it’s practiced in many places involves a procedure way less significant than the total removal of the clitoral hood, which is obviously what we’re comparing with. Even if Wikipedia doesn’t make that explicit to people who don’t bother actually reading its citations. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/193 "2012-07-03T10:42:14Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Dan Savage **has** no taste! Besides, he is talking about the sensation for the PARTNER of an uncut man, not for the uncut man himself. > > And I have also known partners who had been circumcised in adulthood, and who therefore have adult memories of sexual expience **in both states**. In my opinion, these are the ones who can make the most valid comparsions, don’t you think? And I am one of those people (although I am straight). I got cut in September last year, at the age of thirty seven, due to a medical issue. I’d had plenty of sex before (I had a nine and a half year relationship before the operation - the cut was unrelated) and I’ve had a lot of sex after (I’m five months into a new relationship, so I’m guessing a lot of people knows how \*that \*goes!). The truth is, there is a difference. A lot of sensitivity is lost and it feels very different, to the point where I honestly think it is impossible to explain to someone who was cut from birth exactly what they are missing. The end of the penis goes from being the most sensitive part of the body to being almost a shell devoid of sensitivity. Saying that to someone cut from birth, the usual response is “but I can feel the end and it feels ace when it is touched” and that is true, but you feel it nowhere near as much as an uncut man, you simply don’t understand how different it is. Having said that, I’d do it again. I needed it and my sex life has improved as a result of getting things cleared up (note: I have no interest, before anyone asks, into getting into why I needed the operation). I am simply posting to say that as someone that has felt both sides, there is a very large difference. Very large. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/194 "2012-07-03T13:30:55Z")
It seems to me that men who have been snipped later in life have less insight into the differences between the two states than they think as the healing/scarring would be different for a man snipped at infancy. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/195 "2012-07-03T13:40:58Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Look, obviously I am intemperately emotional about this issue, and ought not to go on a posting binge while focused on the bizarre details of that. I do want to point out that there isn’t anything wrong with my circumcised penis, disease- or otherwise. > > But I think that guys like **Malthus** who promote the medical benefits of circumcision ought to be more specific. It is small-time cheating to rest your case on ‘medical benefits’ full stop. What are you afraid of? In what other cases do we amputate infants to prevent disease? See post #70, which contains a link discussing the alleged medical benefits. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/196 "2012-07-03T14:07:14Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It seems to me that men who have been snipped later in life have less insight into the differences between the two states than they think as the healing/scarring would be different for a man snipped at infancy. I disagree, unless nerve endings mysteriously regrow on infants’ penises unlike, well, scarring anywhere else. Even then, those nerve endings are in a completely different place. The glans, as far as I am aware, ends up being exactly the same with the keratinisation working exactly the same. I’m open to being shown to be wrong though. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/197 "2012-07-03T14:23:49Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I disagree, unless nerve endings mysteriously regrow on infants’ penises unlike, well, scarring anywhere else. Even then, those nerve endings are in a completely different place. > > The glans, as far as I am aware, ends up being exactly the same with the keratinisation working exactly the same. I’m open to being shown to be wrong though. I’ve found plenty of articles that describe there to be no scarring/keratinisation of injuries in the fetus, now i’m trying to find an article where it describes when that (probably stem-cell mediated) healing process transforms into a normal adult one. There is, at least, room to believe that a infant circumcision will heal differently/better. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/198 "2012-07-03T14:39:27Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I’ve found plenty of articles that describe there to be no scarring/keratinisation of injuries in the fetus, now i’m trying to find an article where it describes when that (probably stem-cell mediated) healing process transforms into a normal adult one. There is, at least, room to believe that a infant circumcision will heal differently/better. Even then (and I am sceptical), the nerve endings are in a completely different place, leaving the whole experience to be quite different. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/199 "2012-07-03T16:06:12Z")
Novelty Bobble: > [@](#): > > And yet if I decided to use a hole punch to remove the outer edges of my infant son’s ears (to protect from a common cause of skin cancer you understand) I’d be branded some kind of monster! If you do something ostensibly for medical reasons yet no doctor would support it, then that wouldn’t look very good, no. Religious circumcision is not about medicine. It is about faith and spirituality and G-d. Try2BComprehensive: > [@](#): > > I realize you were not talking to me, but I notice you framed that with ‘given’. What amounts to a ‘burden on the state’? A condition which either financially or functionally impedes the government’s ability to carry out its lawful duties. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/200 "2012-07-03T16:23:33Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Religious circumcision is not about medicine. It is about faith and spirituality and G-d. Which is an utterly unacceptable reason to harm another person. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686.md?page=11)