# German appeals court decides against religious circumcision of children. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2012, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686 "2012-06-29T12:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/221 "2012-07-03T22:56:13Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Maybe/maybe not but it simply has nothing to do with religion. In modern Europe it is seen as mutilation of a child without its consent. The views are for all people, not just those of certain religions. > > To put it simply: just because your religion says it is OK doesn’t actually mean it is OK. Exactly the same argument as to why stoning people is not allowed when they break some item of Sharia Law. It has nothing to do with Sharia law, it is everything to do with stoning people simply being a bad thing. > > The US doesn’t (all) see it as mutilation. Hurray for you guys. We don’t agree, so you go do your thing and we’ll do ours. I find it hard to take a German law that specifically restricts a Jewish religious act seriously. I definitely don’t trust their judgement as to whether it amounts to “mutilation”. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/222 "2012-07-03T23:02:39Z")
Good for Germany. Circumcision should have been banned a long time ago ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/223 "2012-07-03T23:05:58Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > you can’t be a “little bit” circumcised. In fact, I guess you could be, for instance by replacing circumcision by a very small, symbolic, snip at the prepuce. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/224 "2012-07-03T23:06:04Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I find it hard to take a German law that specifically restricts a Jewish religious act seriously. I definitely don’t trust their judgement as to whether it amounts to “mutilation”. Yep. Racism takes many different forms. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/225 "2012-07-03T23:06:59Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > And some people say that anti-Semitism is dead in modern Europe. Nothing to do with antisemitism, especially since the case was about a muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/226 "2012-07-03T23:13:26Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Yep. Racism takes many different forms. So does child abuse. Neither are acceptable, even when cloaked under the guise of religion. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/227 "2012-07-03T23:30:45Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So does child abuse. Neither are acceptable, even when cloaked under the guise of religion. Just to be clear, I wasn’t actually agreeing with **suranyi**. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/228 "2012-07-03T23:42:28Z")
Good for Germany. There is nothing stopping religious leaders from having a conference and reinterpreting the holy books so as to keep up with the times. They do it all the time. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/229 "2012-07-03T23:43:28Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > But can you still function sexually? Does it hurt when the head of the penis is touched? Do you have an increased risk of infection? > How many times do I have to say: I am NOT arguing in support of male circumcision, only that it’s NOT comparable to FGM. I jumped in at just the right time. Skipped all the usual back and forth on this issue. Nobody is saying male MGM is as bad as FGM. But it’s still bad. It’s still mutilation. Now we can talk about how some women reinforce MGM by preferring it in mates, or by taking their sons to get mutilated. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/230 "2012-07-03T23:44:46Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I find it hard to take a German law that specifically restricts a Jewish religious act seriously. I definitely don’t trust their judgement as to whether it amounts to “mutilation”. Let’s get an objective definition of mutilation then. I say cutting off any body part without a medical reason without consent is a good definition. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/231 "2012-07-04T01:54:16Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Let’s get an objective definition of mutilation then. > > I say cutting off any body part without a medical reason without consent is a good definition. I guess my barber is guilty of mutilation, then. He cuts my sons hair without his consent. (He is two years old.) ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/232 "2012-07-04T01:57:49Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I guess my barber is guilty of mutilation, then. He cuts my sons hair without his consent. (He is two years old.) Comparing cutting hair to cutting off a piece of a penis is so silly I don’t know why you even mentioned it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/233 "2012-07-04T02:21:54Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Now we can talk about how some women reinforce MGM by preferring it in mates, or by taking their sons to get mutilated. Yes, men are persecuted by women. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/234 "2012-07-04T02:22:58Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Comparing cutting hair to cutting off a piece of a penis is so silly I don’t know why you even mentioned it. I agree. It is as silly as comparing male circumcision to FGM. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/235 "2012-07-04T02:40:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I agree. > > It is as silly as comparing male circumcision to FGM. Grouping all forms of girl cutting as if they are the same, is silly. ---
**Author:** ![MyFactCheckBounced](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MyFactCheckBounced](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFactCheckBounced)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/236 "2012-07-04T03:28:21Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Sorry it took so long for me to get back here - my Internet time on weekends is limited, and I can’t always read through a ton of posts as accumulated here over late Friday - Saturday. Anyway… > > In modern times, when we have no Temple sacrifices, there aren’t any actual commandments that the child can’t fulfill. Still, having the sign of the covenant on his body is good for him, in at least two concrete ways that I can find support for in Jewish rabbinic literature: 1) it serves as an ever-present reminder that he should be following the laws of the Torah (to the level that a minor of his age does), and 2) it brings the favor of G-d upon the nation as whole, and this minor benefits from such as part of the nation. Although the rest of your post made a great deal of sense, I’m sort of confused by the opening volley. I suppose it’s “benefits of circumcision” as opposed to the broader “halakhic reasons for circumcision.” It would seem that the whole “sign of the covenant between God and Israel forever” thing would be in there somewhere. In any event: I can see drawing the line at practices that result in the mutilation of a child. However, when there are no proven downsides to the practice, I see no compelling state interest either. And to whoever said that you couldn’t really call it anti-semitism if the case was about a Muslim, that would depend on a number of definitional nits, not least of which is whether the individual in question was a semite, whether we are considering semitic religions, and whether we are restricting “anti-semitism” to anti-Judaism, for lack of a better word. As I understand it Muslims are circumcised at a few years old rather than a few days in imitation of Mohammad, who most certainly was a semite. As I said earlier: Germans cant have any rule on Jewish religious practices taken seriously. Ever. And that includes if it happened to be a Muslim that the case revolved around. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/237 "2012-07-04T05:29:42Z")
> [@MyFactCheckBounced](#): > > And to whoever said that you couldn’t really call it anti-semitism if the case was about a Muslim, that would depend on a number of definitional nits, not least of which is whether the individual in question was a semite, whether we are considering semitic religions, and whether we are restricting “anti-semitism” to anti-Judaism, . Drop this one. Regardless of the meaning of “semite”, antisemite always refers to Jews.:rolleyes: And just in order to be as contrarian as possible : given that it happened in Germany, the involved muslims are probably Turks hence not semite in any possible sense of the word. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/238 "2012-07-04T08:52:58Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Sure. Up until recently, there was overwhelming evidence that not breast feeding caused measurable harm to children - certainly moire serious (it was alleged) than losing a flap of skin. Now I’m going to take issue with this. No boubt, in a straight comparison between breast and formula, breast it best. But the real world is not that simple. How about the mum that is on medication that makes breast unsafe? Or the mum that is overstressed by breast feeding? Or the mum that can’t be round long enough for breast (for whatever reason)? Or the mum that doesn’t produce enough milk? To start or forward and sort of argument that “choosing” formula for your kids has any sort of equivalence with circumcision is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/239 "2012-07-04T09:16:10Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I find it hard to take a German law that specifically restricts a Jewish religious act seriously. I definitely don’t trust their judgement as to whether it amounts to “mutilation”. If the issue winds its way up into the ECHR and they agree (which I suspect they will)? Then what? Too much nasty anti-Semitic German influence at the ECHR to take _their_ ruling seriously? Or the court disagrees in good faith as to whether cutting off a part of your kid’s dick to satisfy a primitive iron age myth about sky wizards is acceptable in modern Europe? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/240 "2012-07-04T09:19:08Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Nothing to do with antisemitism, especially since the case was about a muslim. Don’t try and reason with racists. It’s hopeless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686.md?page=13)