# German appeals court decides against religious circumcision of children. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2012, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686 "2012-06-29T12:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/61 "2012-06-29T20:20:09Z")
I wonder what the view would be of circumcision for non-religious cultural reasons? The vast majority of Americans are not members of religions that require circumcision, but the significant majority of Americans do so anyway, mostly just because “that’s what everyone does”. If an American expat family were living in Germany and wanted to circumcise their baby boy, what would the reaction be? ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/62 "2012-06-29T20:20:18Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I didn’t see it in the article, but it’s still allowed for medical necessity, like say, pimosis? :rolleyes: Doesn’t it seem like a safe assumption that the law, as written and enforced, probably allows for medically necessary procedures? > [@](#): > > What if you discover at birth that your child is a hemophiliac, or for some other medical reason, cannot be circumcised? The Torah clearly states that if a baby boy has had three other brothers die as a result of circumcision, his parents are not obligated to circumcise him. > [@Malthus](#): > > How about whether to give an infant breastmilk or formula? Should the state mandate that? In fact, it’s a more clear-cut case (if you will excuse the pun 😃 ) than circumcision. Actually, as more and better studies have been done, it’s become far less clear that there’s any medical benefit to breastfeeding. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/63 "2012-06-29T20:24:36Z")
Out of curiosity, can anyone explain the reasons, historical or otherwise, why routine circumcision has been so much more common in America than in Europe? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/64 "2012-06-29T20:24:58Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I don’t know but given that : > > 1. As I said, circumcision for infants isn’t an usual practice in Europe > > 2. Saying “I read the medical literature and I think I should have this procedure done” rarely convinces a doctor, generally speaking. It does in the US. From the American Academy of Pediatrics: > [@](#): > > Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child’s current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided. [http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/103/3/686.abstract?sid=a909a7bf-c3f7-4550-9e70-c42e81a6a8fb](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/103/3/686.abstract?sid=a909a7bf-c3f7-4550-9e70-c42e81a6a8fb) > [@](#): > > I’m not sure you’d get a doctor to perform it. I don’t know that for sure, obviously, but I wouldn’t be much surprised if doctors only accepted to practice circumcision for religious reasons, or if only a subset of doctors accepted to practice it at all. Since nobody asks for their son to be snipped, you trying to do so on the basis on some unclear potential medical benefits might well get you only a :rolleyes: from the staff. > > I’m not clear on the detail of this particular case, but I understand that a doctor botched a circumcision in his private practice, and the baby was then brought into an hospital. That might mean that it was the hospital’s medical staff who had an issue with the procedure and tipped the authorities (of course, the decision might be only a secondary result of some malpractice case or something like that). Whether you’d be able to get a doctor to perform it isn’t the issue - the issue is whether it should be illegal for a doctor to perform it. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/65 "2012-06-29T20:25:12Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Illegal? Such as? Keep in mind, the Supreme Court has ruled that Santarian animal sacrifice is legal. Pretty much all of the sanctions for breaking the ten commandments. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/66 "2012-06-29T20:27:49Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > Actually, as more and better studies have been done, it’s become far less clear that there’s any medical benefit to breastfeeding. Fair enough. Assume it is ten years ago, when the literature was more or less unanimous on the subject. However, the changing nature of the literature brings up an additional point: that we as a society should not be too quick to condemn, and criminalize, choices such as this - where what appears to be a clear-cut case (heh) turns out to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/67 "2012-06-29T20:28:10Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > What if you discover at birth that your child is a hemophiliac, or for some other medical reason, cannot be circumcised? One may not honor any mitzvah to save a life except idalotry, incest and murder. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/68 "2012-06-29T20:32:57Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Out of curiosity, can anyone explain the reasons, historical or otherwise, why routine circumcision has been so much more common in America than in Europe? It is a long and complex issue, the ultimate answer is probably financial. Routine circumcision died off in Britain after WW2 when universal government provided health care came into being, the gov did not want to pay for a pointless surgery. It survived in the states due to insurance and profits, once you get enough generations of men circumcised it also becomes a self fullfilling social thing, the intact are freaks. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/69 "2012-06-29T20:35:04Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Pretty much all of the sanctions for breaking the ten commandments. But those penalties can only be handed down by a duly constituted Sanhedrin. There hasn’t been one of those for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/70 "2012-06-29T20:45:57Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Out of curiosity, can anyone explain the reasons, historical or otherwise, why routine circumcision has been so much more common in America than in Europe? The reasons were various, but generally had to do with the perception that circumcision was good for a person’s health. The literature in the middle of the last century tended to discount health benefits, but by that time the practice had been so well established in NA that people did it anyway. Then the pendulum swung back again, and the literature started to claim that there were, in fact, significant health benefits. Here’s an article on that: [http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/103/3/686.full](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/103/3/686.full) ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/71 "2012-06-29T20:58:40Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > But those penalties can only be handed down by a duly constituted Sanhedrin. There hasn’t been one of those for a long time. That sounds like a dodge, If it were re-instituted would it be OK for the punishments to be handed out? ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/72 "2012-06-29T21:02:43Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Out of curiosity, can anyone explain the reasons, historical or otherwise, why routine circumcision has been so much more common in America than in Europe? It was popularized as a preventative for masturbation. (As far as I know, however, circumcised men masturbate nonetheless.) ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/73 "2012-06-29T21:06:41Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That sounds like a dodge, If it were re-instituted would it be OK for the punishments to be handed out? The only scenario I know of for a proper Sanhedrin to be re-instated is if the Moshiach comes. If he shows up, the entire would start following Jewish law and any US laws preventing that would be repealed. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/74 "2012-06-29T21:11:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I never cease to be amazed at the rancor some people express on this topic. Pretty much every internet discussion I’ve witnessed on this topic has gotten very heated. People seem so passionate about the subject that IMO a parent weighing the pros and cons of getting their infant son circumcised should remember to put “He may grow up to bitterly resent me for doing it.” in the cons column. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/75 "2012-06-29T21:11:52Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > The only scenario I know of for a proper Sanhedrin to be re-instated is if the Moshiach comes. If he shows up, the entire would start following Jewish law and any US laws preventing that would be repealed. Good thing that’ll never happen then. In the meantime I take great comfort that most people are happy to ignore the nasty religious bits that don’t square with the modern world. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/76 "2012-06-29T21:13:13Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > It was popularized as a preventative for masturbation. (As far as I know, however, circumcised men masturbate nonetheless.) Around the beginning of the last century some influential figures, like Dr. Kellogg of cornflakes fame, promoted the practice as a masturbation-preventer - but that was never the sole or even primary motive (and it was pretty easily disproved!). What made it more than a fad among the followers of Dr. Kellogg and the like was the medical literature of the time, which claimed all sorts of health benefits from the practice. By the 1960s, the practice was well established (and no-one was claiming it prevented wanking), and the medical literature was more or less unanimous in claiming that the alleged medical benefits previously claimed were bunk. By the 1990s, the medical literature swung the other way, and is now claiming the practice _does_ have medical benefits. Since then, that evidence has strengthened. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/77 "2012-06-29T21:16:26Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > Pretty much every internet discussion I’ve witnessed on this topic has gotten very heated. People seem so passionate about the subject that IMO a parent weighing the pros and cons of getting their infant son circumcised should remember to put “He may grow up to bitterly resent me for doing it.” in the cons column. If you judge by internet debates, “being bitterly resented” is a standing risk for just about _any_ parental decision, major or minor, starting with having a kid at all. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/78 "2012-06-29T21:24:40Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Good thing that’ll never happen then. In the meantime I take great comfort that most people are happy to ignore the nasty religious bits that don’t square with the modern world. A few things- We don’t sacrifice animals any more because we have no Temple. This doesn’t stop the Orthodox from training the proper Jews in just how to do so. Indeed, phrases like ‘And may Thy Temple be speedily rebuilt’ are in plenty of prayers. I’m not IGNORING anything. I am no more qualified to hand out Sanhedrin verdicts than I am to hand out US Supreme Court verdicts. Finally, while (as I am sure you are aware) the Torah recommends the death penalty for all kinds of things, a Sanhedrin that handed down a death penalty more than once in seven years (some sources say seventy years) was known as a murderous court. Think about it for a moment, if every minor violation of a law got the death penalty there would quickly be no Jews left. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/79 "2012-06-29T21:40:57Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > . . . I never cease to be amazed at the rancor some people express on this topic. > > I am circumcised (as most boys in the US were when I was born) and have never been in the slightest fussed about it. Everything works fine, women I’ve been with seem pleased, in short no problems whatsoever. . . . Total agreement. > [@](#): > > NOTE: I want to be clear that this in no way applies to female circumcision which is literally genital mutilation. That shit is truly fucked up and in no way comparable to male circumcision. Thankfully it is not widely practiced (but still alive and well in some parts of the world). Actually, if the practice were limited to something that is closer to analogous – removal of a portion of the clitoral hood – that would generally be okay. In fact, in the 1970’s, there was a brief fad for that among adult women. It was said to enhance sensitivity. To me, it’s about as unimportant as whether one’s belly-button is an innie or an outie – and some people have surgery to alter that, too. Should that be banned as “mutilation?” ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/80 "2012-06-29T21:43:20Z")
I was very happy to hear the news and hope it is the start of a worldwide trend. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686.md?page=5)