# German appeals court decides against religious circumcision of children. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2012, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686 "2012-06-29T12:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/101 "2012-06-30T01:39:54Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Nobodies ties the cord anymore, they use [plastic clamps like this](http://assets.inhabitots.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/ClampingCord.jpg). Please refrain from linking to pictures like that in circumcision threads. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/102 "2012-06-30T01:41:26Z")
> [@Confused dart cum](#): > > Do you still need me to? Yes, yes I do. > [@](#): > > Do you think this proves any point whatsoever? I think it proves that the Jewish courts executed people a hell of a lot less often than some posters thought. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/103 "2012-06-30T01:48:14Z")
> [@Confused dart cum](#): > > But gotta laugh at you trying to justify mosaic law. That’s just stupid. And stop coveting my ass. What makes you think he gives two shits about your ass much less that he covets it? ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/104 "2012-06-30T02:56:40Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I think it proves that the Jewish courts executed people a hell of a lot less often than some posters thought. The Mishnah quote you cited was from later observers, indicating their opinion of capital punishment. It undoubtedly helps shed light on the actual practice of the Jewish court during the era of the Temple, and indeed the Law itself makes it clear that execution required extraordinary justification. But as far as I understand it, these writings are those of later sages, writing in a period in which the Sanhedrin was heavily persecuted and held little to no power, and their opinions about the appropriateness of capital punishment do not represent the prevailing views of the earlier era when the Jews held judicial authority. Akiva and Tarfon’s wholesale objection to capital punishment draws an implicit comparison between their beliefs and the actual practices of the Jewish courts. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/105 "2012-06-30T02:58:33Z")
Look, obviously I am intemperately emotional about this issue, and ought not to go on a posting binge while focused on the bizarre details of that. I do want to point out that there isn’t anything wrong with my circumcised penis, disease- or otherwise. But I think that guys like **Malthus** who promote the medical benefits of circumcision ought to be more specific. It is small-time cheating to rest your case on ‘medical benefits’ full stop. What are you afraid of? In what other cases do we amputate infants to prevent disease? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/106 "2012-06-30T05:17:09Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > What are you afraid of? In what other cases do we amputate infants to prevent disease? In fact how overwhelming and persuasive would the benefits have to be before anyone would approve of pre-emptive amputations on infants other than circumcision? How many prevented deaths due to skin cancer for instance would justify removing all infant’s ear lobes at birth? I think most people would be irrationally resistant to this practice. Which is my point that the threshold for most people being ok with circumcision is irrational and culture based. In cultures where circ is not routine or religious people are biased in the opposite direction, it is a surgery of last resort. I’ve seen a few people mention infants or children having phimosis, in fact this is normal despite the fact it is often used as a reason to circ. The foreskin is bonded to the glans at birth and sometimes doesn’t fully seperate until puberty. > **[Phimosis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis)** > > Phimosis (from Greek φίμωσις phimōsis 'muzzling') is a condition in which the foreskin of the penis cannot stretch to allow it to be pulled back past the glans. A balloon-like swelling under the foreskin may occur with urination. In teenagers and adults, it may result in pain during an erection, but is otherwise not painful. Those affected are at greater risk of inflammation of the glans, known as balanitis, and other complications. > In infancy, phimosis is considered physiological (normal). ... > [@](#): > > Normal developmentAt birth, the inner layer of the foreskin is sealed to the glans penis. This attachment forms “early in fetal development and provide[s] a protective cocoon for the delicate developing glans.”[12] The foreskin is usually non-retractable in infancy and early childhood.[12] > > During the 20th century, studies were released which furthered understanding of the normal development of the foreskin. For example, The fate of the foreskin, a study of circumcision,[13] Further fate of the foreskin, Incidence of preputial adhesions, phimosis, and smegma among Danish schoolboys,[14] and Analysis of shape and retractability of the prepuce in 603 Japanese boys.[15] > > The American Academy of Pediatrics and the Canadian Pediatric Society state that no attempt should be made to retract the foreskin of an infant.[16][17] Age is reportedly a factor in non-retractability: according to Huntley et al. the foreskin is reportedly retractable in approximately 50% of cases at 1 year of age, 90% by 3 years of age, and 99% by age 17. These authors argue that, unless scarring or other abnormality is present, non-retractibility may “be considered normal for males up to and including adolescence.”[2] Hill states that full retractability of the foreskin may not be achieved until late childhood or early adulthood.[18] > > Some pediatric urologists have argued that many physicians continue to have trouble distinguishing developmental non-retractility from pathological phimosis.[3][19][20] Note that wiki page has photos of a penis. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/107 "2012-06-30T05:18:35Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > . . . pretty sure that’s not true, unless you’re saying tying off the umbilical cord is in itself a cosmetic procedure. I was born at home, and I have an innie, as do most adults, in my experience. I’m relatively certain my parents did not ever have my belly button surgically corrected. I may very well be wrong – hardly the first time – but I thought that, yes, the tying off of the umbilical cord was in part a cosmetic procedure. The doctors pay a little attention to how it’s going to look. Again, if they didn’t, if they simply clamped and cut, everyone would have an outie. Tying up an innie isn’t automatic; it takes a bit of effort. The comparison to earlobes would be a better one if everyone wore hoods or scarves all the time, so that earlobes were about as private as penises are. If nobody but your closest family and/or lover(s) knew whether or not you had earlobes…then, in my opinion, earlobe snipping would be absolutely no problem at all. If the church of the holy pinna demanded it, I wouldn’t stand in their way. Of course, with earlobes being out in the open, the comparison isn’t as good… ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/108 "2012-06-30T07:34:13Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Routine does not equal medically indicated, circumcision in the USA was to the point in the 60s-70s they didn’t even ask parental consent it was just done as a matter of course before infants were discharged from maternity wards. Very different from medically indicated circumcision. > > [Circumcision in America](http://www.noharmm.org/circamerica.htm) > > That article is on a anti-circumcision site, but it seems to cover the basics. The question is like asking why shaving pubic hair has become fashionable among some women, it has no concrete clear answer. I understand there is no clear answer to the question of why it is routine or not - totally mixed up in culture, habit, medical fads, etc, etc. I was wondering if you had a cite for the theory that the change from it being standard in the UK to being rare related to the setting up of the NHS after the war. It’s a genuine question, I’m not trying to make a point, it sounds plausible but I wondered if there was any evidence. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/109 "2012-06-30T07:43:54Z")
> [@MarcusF](#): > > I understand there is no clear answer to the question of why it is routine or not - totally mixed up in culture, habit, medical fads, etc, etc. I was wondering if you had a cite for the theory that the change from it being standard in the UK to being rare related to the setting up of the NHS after the war. It’s a genuine question, I’m not trying to make a point, it sounds plausible but I wondered if there was any evidence. It is a wiki cite but: > **[History of circumcision](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_circumcision#Medical_circumcision_from_1870_to_1950_in_English-speaking_countries)** > > Circumcision likely has ancient roots among several ethnic groups in sub-equatorial Africa, Egypt, and Arabia, though the specific form and extent of circumcision has varied. Ritual male circumcision is known to have been practiced by South Sea Islanders, Aboriginal peoples of Australia, Sumatrans, and some Ancient Egyptians. > Today it is still practiced by some Jews, Samaritans, Druze, Coptic Christians,\[a\] Ethiopian Orthodox,\[a\] Eritrean Orthodox,\[a\] Muslims, and some tribes in East and So... > [@](#): > > In 1949, a lack of consensus in the medical community as to whether circumcision carried with it any notable health benefit motivated the United Kingdom’s newly formed National Health Service to remove infant circumcision from its list of covered services. One reason may have been Douglas Gairdner’s famous study, The fate of the foreskin, which revealed that for the years 1942–1947, about 16 children per year in England and Wales had died because of circumcision, a rate of about 1 per 6000 circumcisions.[38] Since then, circumcision has been an out-of-pocket cost to parents, and the proportion of newborns circumcised in the hospital has fallen to less than one percent. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/110 "2012-06-30T16:03:02Z")
> [@grude](#): > > It is a wiki cite but: > > [History of circumcision - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_circumcision#Medical_circumcision_from_1870_to_1950_in_English-speaking_countries) Many thanks - the referenced study by Gairdner looks like the basis and the consequent decision of the NHS not to fund the operation were the factors that changed the norm in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/111 "2012-06-30T23:53:40Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > The Torah clearly states that if a baby boy has had three other brothers die as a result of circumcision, his parents are not obligated to circumcise him. So you have to wait until your other kids die? That’s pretty messed up. FWIW, I’m not part of the whole, “OMG, YOU’RE MUTILATING YOUR KID!!!” brigade, but I also don’t see the point. And there is no comparison to FGM. Men can still function sexually, most women then cannot. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/112 "2012-07-01T00:06:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So you have to wait until your other kids die? That’s pretty messed up. I think it’s already been posted in this thread but except for the prohibitions on idol worship, incest, and killing an innocent person, any Jewish law can be broken to save a life. I’m sure somebody will be along to post the relevant commentary once the sun goes down. > [@](#): > > FWIW, I’m not part of the whole, “OMG, YOU’RE MUTILATING YOUR KID!!!” brigade, but I also don’t see the point. We can speculate on the point, but really we do it cause G-d told us to. To paraphrase ’ And as a sign of the everlasting Covenant twixt Me and Israel, you shall slice yer sons’ pee pees on the eighth day.’ ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/113 "2012-07-01T00:23:46Z")
Well I’m not Jewish :mad: ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/114 "2012-07-01T00:29:19Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Well I’m not Jewish :mad: Um, could you clarify and expand on that? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/115 "2012-07-01T00:34:50Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Well I’m not Jewish :mad: Nobody’s poifect. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/116 "2012-07-01T02:03:28Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Um, could you clarify and expand on that? Well you see, I wasn’t raised Jewish, that’s for sure. Except for the amputated penis part, that is also for sure. My immediate ancestors apparently are not Jewish. A few generations back, who knows? It’s possible yet I have no solid reason to believe so. And I’d really rather people had seen fit to leave my dick alone, if you see what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/117 "2012-07-01T02:06:51Z")
Thanks for clearing that up. If I understand your position correctly, I agree with it. IMO there is no good secular reason for routine circumcision. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/118 "2012-07-01T02:09:08Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Well you see, I wasn’t raised Jewish, that’s for sure. Except for the amputated penis part, that is also for sure. > > My immediate ancestors apparently are not Jewish. A few generations back, who knows? It’s possible yet I have no solid reason to believe so. And I’d really rather people had seen fit to leave my dick alone, if you see what I mean. So, then unless you’re a Muslim, your parents circumcised you for non-religious reasons. Why are you upset about it? I wish my parents had circumcised me as an infant. It would have saved me getting one as a teenager following a very unpleasant infection. So what do you feel you lost? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/119 "2012-07-01T02:11:16Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Thanks for clearing that up. If I understand your position correctly, I agree with it. IMO there is no good secular reason for routine circumcision. The American Pediatric Association disagrees. Similarly, I would certainly have been better off had I been circumcised as an infant or if Muslims believed in infant circumcisions. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686/120 "2012-07-01T02:33:15Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I wish my parents had circumcised me as an infant. It would have saved me getting one as a teenager following a very unpleasant infection. When do Muslims circumcise? I saw something on the web that indicated it was just before puberty. That must be painful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-appeals-court-decides-against-religious-circumcision-of-children/626686.md?page=7)