# German grammar question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 15, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-grammar-question/280064 "2004-12-15T23:44:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-grammar-question/280064/1 "2004-12-15T23:44:48Z")
To what extent is it still considered correct or desirable, in German, that one use singular dative inflections on nouns? I’m talking about the extra “e” you tack onto words in certain expressions, like “im Wege” (in the way), or “meinem Freunde” (to my friend). From what I’ve seen, it’s somewhat archaic, and I notice it frequently being done in my German translation of _Lord Of The Rings_. In that book, I assume that the translator deliberately uses some slightly archaic language as did Tolkien when he wrote the original. But if I say “Ich gab meinem Freund das Buch” instead of “Ich gab meinem Freund **e** das Buch”, is anyone going to make prejudicial judgements regarding my mastery of German or my background? Or if I do use the dative singular, would people wonder what Heinrich von Kleist novel I stepped out of, or would they not notice? ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-grammar-question/280064/2 "2004-12-16T02:52:07Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > To what extent is it still considered correct or desirable, in German, that one use singular dative inflections on nouns? I’m talking about the extra “e” you tack onto words in certain expressions, like “im Wege” (in the way), or “meinem Freunde” (to my friend). > > From what I’ve seen, it’s somewhat archaic, and I notice it frequently being done in my German translation of _Lord Of The Rings_. In that book, I assume that the translator deliberately uses some slightly archaic language as did Tolkien when he wrote the original. > > But if I say “Ich gab meinem Freund das Buch” instead of “Ich gab meinem Freund **e** das Buch”, is anyone going to make prejudicial judgements regarding my mastery of German or my background? Or if I do use the dative singular, would people wonder what Heinrich von Kleist novel I stepped out of, or would they not notice? Could you show us a real sample? ---
**Author:** ![chaoticbear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@chaoticbear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaoticbear)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-grammar-question/280064/3 "2004-12-16T02:57:36Z")
IME with Germans, as long as the sentence makes sense, they don’t care. I made fun of my German exchange student once for being sloppy with endings, and he then made fun of my German. Interesting archaic stuff, though… I’ve never even seen that. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-grammar-question/280064/4 "2004-12-16T03:24:38Z")
It is really archaic. Usually don’t do it. Today it is only done for certain idioms (“zum Tode verurteilt” - “sentenced to death”) or for sounding more pompous and archaic in general: “dem Feinde entronnen” - “escaped from his enemy”. However this refers only to those singular forms possibly ending in “-e”. You still say “dem Menschen”, “dem Namen”. You also use the dativ forms of plurals, articles and pronouns (“dem”,“einem”,“ihm”, “ihr”.) The dativ itself is not disappearing, just one way of forming it changed. The translations of LotR use a lot of archaic elements. A few years ago the publishers decided that the old translation by Margaret Carroux exaggerated that and offered a more contemporary translation by Wolfgang Krege. However the reactions from the fans were divided and you can still buy both versions. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-grammar-question/280064/5 "2004-12-16T16:01:30Z")
> [@kellner](#): > > It is really archaic. Usually don’t do it. Today it is only done for certain idioms (“zum Tode verurteilt” - “sentenced to death”) or for sounding more pompous and archaic in general: “dem Feinde entronnen” - “escaped from his enemy”. > However this refers only to those singular forms possibly ending in “-e”. You still say “dem Menschen”, “dem Namen” You also use the dativ forms of plurals, articles and pronouns (“dem”,“einem”,“ihm”, “ihr”.) The dativ itself is not disappearing, just one way of forming it changed. Of course, I was referring only to the special situations you mention, AFAIK only neuter and masculine nouns of one syllable, or ending on the accented syllable, and ending with a consonant. **OuryL** , if you want another example, there’s a line from an old drinking song, _Ich sitze alleine bei meinem Glas Weine_. No one would say that today, it would be _allein bei meinem Glas Wein_. > [@](#): > > The translations of LotR use a lot of archaic elements. A few years ago the publishers decided that the old translation by Margaret Carroux exaggerated that and offered a more contemporary translation by Wolfgang Krege. However the reactions from the fans were divided and you can still buy both versions. The Krege translation is the one that I’m reading. I’d be interested to see the other translations, but they’re rather hard to come by. I was also interested to notice one conjunction which I have never seen, and I assume to be another archaism: _es sei denn_, meaning “unless”. When I was living in Germany as a student I noticed that people thought it sounded odd when I said _wegen dessen_ (genitive) as I’d been taught. Apparently what people actually say is _wegen dem_ dative. It must be sort of like saying “who” and “whom” in English.