# German judge rules Koran allows wife abuse **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 23, 2007, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199 "2007-03-23T16:20:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/1 "2007-03-23T16:20:38Z")
I just heard this on the radio and I’m so furious the only thing I could think of to do was to start a thread here. Damn, I’m angry! [http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070322/wl\_afp/germanyjusticeislam\_070322132641](http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070322/wl_afp/germanyjusticeislam_070322132641) ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/2 "2007-03-23T16:22:54Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] I just heard this on the radio and I’m so furious the only thing I could think of to do was to start a thread here. Damn, I’m angry! [http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070322/wl\_afp/germanyjusticeislam\_070322132641](http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070322/wl_afp/germanyjusticeislam_070322132641) [/QUOTE] That story just doesn’t make sense. I’d have to read the actual letter or decision or whatever that the judge wrote. Plus, it says “letter” and I don’t understand what a “letter” from the judge in question has to do with anything. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/3 "2007-03-23T16:28:54Z")
[This story](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070323/ap_on_re_eu/germany_quran_divorce;_ylt=ApRY6XEar5H6kMdNGTG285t0bBAF) is a little bit clearer. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/4 "2007-03-23T17:08:32Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] I just heard this on the radio and I’m so furious the only thing I could think of to do was to start a thread here. Damn, I’m angry! [http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070322/wl\_afp/germanyjusticeislam\_070322132641](http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070322/wl_afp/germanyjusticeislam_070322132641) [/QUOTE] You aren’t clear about what exactly angers you or what you’re pitting. Is it that the judge rationalized an acceptable reason for spousal abuse? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/5 "2007-03-23T17:14:57Z")
[QUOTE=Crotalus] [This story](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070323/ap_on_re_eu/germany_quran_divorce;_ylt=ApRY6XEar5H6kMdNGTG285t0bBAF) is a little bit clearer. [/QUOTE] You’re right, that does make a little more sense. The judge did not refuse a divorce, rather, she refused to allow for a “fast track divorce” to be paid for by the state. Also, she did not do anything which forces the woman in question to be in contact with the abuser–rather, the judge was under the understanding (apparently correctly) that the abuser is under a restraining order already. So before I can know whether there’s something wrong with the judge’s decision, I would need to know what the grounds for the request for funds for a “fast track divorce” were, and whether it is typical to grant funds on such grounds. It is mentioned that in a letter written by the judge, she mentions that in Moroccan culture, husbands have “custody” of the wives. But the story doesn’t say why she mentions this. I simply don’t have the resources available to me from these stories to say whether the judge was doing something inappropriate with this information or not. (I also don’t have enough from these stories to say whether the information about Moroccan culture is correct or not.) -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/6 "2007-03-23T17:15:34Z")
[Here’s a detailed story](http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,473017,00.html) from Spiegel Online. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/7 "2007-03-23T17:19:55Z")
I think there’s a bit of fuel for outrage in the judge’s use of the Koran to excuse something that is illegal under German law. Imagine a US judge excusing throwing rocks at an adulterer. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/8 "2007-03-23T17:23:25Z")
There’s a lot of people sounding off on this here in Germany. The judge apparently considered this one aspect of the divorce proceedings a legal technicality and did not consider how it’d be understood by the woman and the public (the judge has since been recused from the case by a judge’s panel that the woman’s lawyer appealed to. From what I recollect of the last two days’ press reports: - it wasn’t a question of granting or refusing permission to file for divorce (as the first Yahoo article said), but rather whether the normal period of separation (1 yr) before the divorce became final could be waived. IOW, whether the woman could get divorced at once rather than living separated for one year then get the divorce. - the judge said that an injunction to not contact the wife against the husband might well have been granted, if it had been applied for. - but that there was no extraordinary hardship in being legally married to the asshole husband during the separation period, just ordinary hardship. The cultural argument apparently came into play in that question. (German Muslims said BTW that her interpretation of the Koran were quite naive). So what we got IMO is a case of a figuratively tone-deaf judge who thought she’d decide on an unimportant technicality here, and a lot of people taking the occasion for posturing. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/9 "2007-03-23T17:24:36Z")
[QUOTE=Crotalus] I think there’s a bit of fuel for outrage in the judge’s use of the Koran to excuse something that is illegal under German law. Imagine a US judge excusing throwing rocks at an adulterer. [/QUOTE] Agreed. I wasn’t sure what pissed off the OP, though. If he were Muslim, for example, he might be legitimately pissed at that sort of interpretation of the Qur’an. It is not unlike the Christian Bible verses that tells wives to submit to their husbands. Out of context, it might excuse all sorts of abuse. In context, it applies only to women who freely believe that their husbands love them “as Christ loves the Church”. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/10 "2007-03-23T17:46:42Z")
The more nuanced story indicates that no one is being punished, in Germany, for happening to be Muslim. I will note, however, (before the usual subjects show up), the following statement that appeared even in the first seriously distorted story: > [@](#): > > The Central Council of Muslims in Germany also condemned the decision. > > “The judge should have made a decision based on the German constitution instead of the Koran,” said spokeswoman Nurhan Soykan, who said that violence and mistreatment, regardless of the gender of the victim, were also grounds for divorce in the Islamic world. ---
**Author:** ![GawnFishin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@GawnFishin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GawnFishin)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/11 "2007-03-23T17:54:30Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] The judge did not refuse a divorce, rather, she refused to allow for a “fast track divorce” to be paid for by the state. Also, she did not do anything which forces the woman in question to be in contact with the abuser–rather, the judge was under the understanding (apparently correctly) that the abuser is under a restraining order already. -FrL- [/QUOTE] Apparently the judge in question was the one who issued the restraining order, if I am reading [this NYT article](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/22/world/europe/22cnd-germany.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin) correctly. > [@](#): > > In May 2006, the police were summoned to the couple’s home after a particularly violent incident. At that time, Judge Datz-Winter ordered the husband to move out and stay at least 50 meters (164 feet) away from the home. Also from the same article. > [@](#): > > Judge Datz-Winter narrowly avoided being killed 10 years ago in a case involving a man and woman whose relationship had come apart. The man emptied a gun in her courtroom — killing his former partner and wounding her lawyer. The judge survived by diving under her desk. > > German newspapers have speculated that the ordeal may have affected her judgment in this case, a suggestion that the court spokesman denied. I’d say that after what had happened previously this time she thought she’d go with “ **Plan B**.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/12 "2007-03-23T21:10:37Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I wasn’t sure what pissed off the OP, though. [/QUOTE] I’m a little surprised that this question comes up. I guess we must have slightly different values and/or ways of reading this. To me it just seems obvious for reasons mostly stated above. But since you asked twice, I’ll try to explain. The things that infuriate me include: Powerful people abusing weaker people Men abusing women A Western government citing any religion as a basis for making a decision Any government condoning, or coming close to condoning, domestic violence A Western government or civilization surrendering to barbaric values ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/13 "2007-03-23T21:14:48Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] The more nuanced story indicates that no one is being punished, in Germany, for happening to be Muslim. [/QUOTE] I read it differently. The woman was denied a fast-track divorce because she was Muslim. I don’t know the advantages or disadvantages of fast-track divorces in Germany these days, but obviously it offers her something or else she wouldn’t have asked for it. What am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/14 "2007-03-23T21:33:26Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] I read it differently. The woman was denied a fast-track divorce because she was Muslim. I don’t know the advantages or disadvantages of fast-track divorces in Germany these days, but obviously it offers her something or else she wouldn’t have asked for it. What am I missing? [/QUOTE] What you appear to be missing in the subsequent stories (I have no criticism of the OP based on the initially posted story), is that the woman is already under the protection of several judicial restraining orders and is in no immediate danger from the husband, meaning she is being treated the way any other woman in Germany in a similar situation would be treated. I’m not sure of the actual content of the judge’s comments, but there is no evidence (yet presented) that indicates that the woman is being singled out for lesser justice based on her religion. If she was remaining in the house with the husband and in imminent danger from his abuse, it sounds as though the judge would have granted the fast track petition. Since the situation is already over a year old, the woman is no longer living with the husband, and the husband is under order to maintain a distance, the judge decided to deny the fast track. The religion comments seem odd, but do not appear to be the direct cause of the denial of the fast track petition. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/15 "2007-03-23T21:54:39Z")
In re-reading all the linked reports and digging up a few more, it does seem that the judge’s comments (that have still never been quoted fully or in context) seemed to rely on an odd interpretation of one _sura_ when denying the fast track. (Other reports seem to indicate that the judge–however oddly she used the Qur’an–seemed more concerned that the costs of the divorce are underwritten by the state in fast track divorces along with noting that since even a fast track divorce would only accelerate, not eliminate, the waiting period, the one year separation would be concluded in May, anyway.) The judge, (who has been recused from the case and, apparently, removed from the bench for the time being), does seem to have acted stupidly. I’m not sure whether her actions were motivated by religious bias so much as by not wanting to grant state monies to an immigrant, however. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/16 "2007-03-23T22:38:35Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] In re-reading all the linked reports and digging up a few more, it… [/QUOTE] Sounds like we agree more than we disagree ---
**Author:** ![enigm4tic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@enigm4tic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigm4tic)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/17 "2007-03-23T22:42:39Z")
From reading the links, I believe the judge intended to stir up controversy over the Islamic religion by using it in such a bizarre ruling. That she intended to make the religion and the culture look bad by implying the culture generally includes and the religion allows for husbands to beat their wives. now THAT would be outrageous. Luckily, it appears her plan has backfired, but unfortunately, she’ll probably get through to those wackos who only look for their own position in a story, and they’ll use it as a cite that “Islam is backwards” which is exactly the impression this biased judge is attempting to create. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/18 "2007-03-24T06:42:46Z")
> [@](#): > > **Liberal** : It is not unlike the Christian Bible verses that tells wives to submit to their husbands. Out of context, it might excuse all sorts of abuse. In context, it applies only to women who freely believe that their husbands love them “as Christ loves the Church”. Naturally, I wouldn’t want to look at Paul’s words out of context. :rolleyes: My husband does not love me as Christ loves the Church. Can we get real here? He wouldn’t even _want_ me to submit to him. There’s no sport in it. Are you having fun? In another direction: If the man has a history of abuse and believes that he has a right to abuse his wife, then the sooner that she is no longer his wife, the better. Emotionally it is better to get the break over with too. This man has threatened to kill her, right? Why prolong the agony for both of them and keep the wound open? They both need to be able to move on with their lives. Too many women have been murdered while waiting for the divorce to be final. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/19 "2007-03-24T06:48:32Z")
**Zoe** , (and to the OP, please pardon the slight hijack) I don’t know if you saw my last post to you, but I’m wondering how you are…you know, how’s the ol’ brain and everything? Very, very well, I hope. Regards, 😉 **SA** ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199/20 "2007-03-24T09:32:31Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] My husband does not love me as Christ loves the Church. [/QUOTE] Then it doesn’t apply to you, does it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-judge-rules-koran-allows-wife-abuse/397199.md?page=2)