# German language question - declension of people's names? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 12, 2006, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-language-question-declension-of-peoples-names/352315 "2006-04-12T01:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-language-question-declension-of-peoples-names/352315/1 "2006-04-12T01:34:42Z")
My choir is in final rehearsals for this week’s performances of Bach’s \*St John Passion \* and I’m curious about the German usage in one of the choruses. It’s the part where Pilate offers to release Jesus in line with the Jewish Passover custom and the crowd instead demands the release of Barabbas. After Pilate makes the offer the crowd (choir) responds: Nicht diesen, diesen nicht, sondern Barraba **m**! I don’t know a lot of German, but I thought that the declension of nouns didn’t extend to proper nouns like people’s names. Is the Barraba **m** form (which I assume is an accusative) some sort of 18th century German usage? Or does it have something to do with the Hebrew origin of the name? ---
**Author:** ![DarrenS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@DarrenS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarrenS)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-language-question-declension-of-peoples-names/352315/2 "2006-04-12T01:43:08Z")
I remember learning that this is done (though, less and less in modern-day German). [This](http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~hr/lang/de-decl.html) page agrees. > [@](#): > > Names have only their genitive case different from the nominative. The pattern is similar to masculine nouns but with the important difference that the -s (but never -es) genitive ending occurs with all names irrespective of gender (Antons, Annas). After a sibilant, it may be replaced by an apostrophe (Franz’); the formation with -ens (Franzens) is archaic. Where the person is well-known enough, the article is often used to avoid the genitive marker (das Leben des Franz von Assissi). ---
**Author:** ![Yeah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/dbc845/32.png) [@Yeah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeah)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-language-question-declension-of-peoples-names/352315/3 "2006-04-12T01:48:19Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > My choir is in final rehearsals for this week’s performances of Bach’s \*St John Passion \* and I’m curious about the German usage in one of the choruses. It’s the part where Pilate offers to release Jesus in line with the Jewish Passover custom and the crowd instead demands the release of Barabbas. After Pilate makes the offer the crowd (choir) responds: > > Nicht diesen, diesen nicht, sondern Barraba **m**! > > I don’t know a lot of German, but I thought that the declension of nouns didn’t extend to proper nouns like people’s names. Is the Barraba **m** form (which I assume is an accusative) some sort of 18th century German usage? Or does it have something to do with the Hebrew origin of the name? It’s not German. Latin maybe? ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-language-question-declension-of-peoples-names/352315/4 "2006-04-12T02:14:52Z")
It is an old-fashioned convention to preserve latin declensions in proper nouns, including words from other languages that came from latin sources. It is rarely done today, but it survives in many phrases. e.g. the German equivalent of A.D. is _nach Christ **i** Geburt / after Christ’s birth_. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-language-question-declension-of-peoples-names/352315/5 "2006-04-12T02:31:32Z")
> [@kellner](#): > > It is an old-fashioned convention to preserve latin declensions in proper nouns, including words from other languages that came from latin sources. That’s very helpful. Thanks **kellner**. ---
**Author:** ![MartinL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@MartinL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MartinL)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-language-question-declension-of-peoples-names/352315/6 "2006-04-12T12:34:12Z")
I second **kellner**. I can also confirm your assumption regarding the accusative. When the Romans latinized non-Roman names, they applied a declension which best matched the ending of the name in their opinion. So “Barrabas” is treated as if ending in -a (the s is ignored): Barrabas, Barrabae, Barrabae, Barrabam, Barrabas, Barraba ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-language-question-declension-of-peoples-names/352315/7 "2006-04-12T12:39:33Z")
In Aramaic _bar abba_ means ‘son of a father’. In a patronymic system, failure to specify the father’s name implies it’s unknown, so I’ve heard the name interpreted as a roundabout acknowledgement of bastardy. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-language-question-declension-of-peoples-names/352315/8 "2006-04-12T13:34:23Z")
> [@kellner](#): > > It is an old-fashioned convention to preserve latin declensions in proper nouns, including words from other languages that came from latin sources. It is rarely done today, but it survives in many phrases. e.g. the German equivalent of A.D. is _nach Christ **i** Geburt / after Christ’s birth_. Let me add to this the 18th/early 19th Century German custom of adopting Latinate or Greek forms and treating them as if Latin/Greek nouns adopted into German and declined in the same way as if still Latin or Greek. As an example, hymn composer Johann Neumann is regularly found listed by the Grecianized form of his name, Johannes Neander. The “Barabbas” reference here may well have been dealt with in that way. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-language-question-declension-of-peoples-names/352315/9 "2006-04-12T23:45:38Z")
Another thing to keep in mind is that proper nouns are pluralized by adding s. My wife and I are die Seldens. This is true despite the fact that well under 1% of German nouns are pluralized with an s. Stephen Pinker makes a big point of this in his Words and Rules. And I checked it with a German speaking colleague who left Germany in 1938 and he agreed.