# German physicists claim to have broken lightspeed barrier
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 16, 2007, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857 "2007-08-16T21:24:16Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2007, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/1 "2007-08-16T21:24:16Z")
Story in the [_Telegraph:_](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/08/16/scispeed116.xml)
> [@](#):
>
> According to Einstein’s special theory of relativity, it would require an infinite amount of energy to propel an object at more than 186,000 miles per second.
>
> However, Dr Gunter Nimtz and Dr Alfons Stahlhofen, of the University of Koblenz, say they may have breached a key tenet of that theory.
>
> The pair say they have conducted an experiment in which microwave photons - energetic packets of light - travelled “instantaneously” between a pair of prisms that had been moved up to 3ft apart.
Should we get all excited about this, or regard it with the same skepticism as Steorn’s “Orbo” perpetual-motion machine?
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2007, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/2 "2007-08-16T21:29:09Z")
I vote scepticism. If they’re right, there’s always time to get excited about it later when subsequent independent experimentation backs it up.
Whereas if we get all happy now and it turns out to be fake, we look like idiots.
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### Author:  [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2007, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/3 "2007-08-16T21:30:39Z")
I note that the prisms were only 3 feet apart… I can see there being a bit of error with the stopwatch over that short a distance.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2007, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/4 "2007-08-16T21:31:25Z")
I’m not skeptical, I’m just [uncertain.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle)
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/5 "2007-08-16T21:34:44Z")
**Mr Moto** , of all the times I’ve wanted to punch you, none equal my desire to punch you right now. 😉
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2007, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/6 "2007-08-16T21:36:14Z")
Two words: Cold Fusion.
I’m skeptical of these “microwave photons” that travel 3’ instantaneously.
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### Author:  [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2007, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/7 "2007-08-16T22:13:14Z")
People typically get the phase velocity and group velocity confused with these kind of experiments, even physicists.
I’ll read the link and see if I can tell what they were doing…
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### Author:  [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2007, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/8 "2007-08-16T22:27:48Z")
Hmmm…
From [here](http://www.springerlink.com/content/q776p58585550165/):
[QUOTE=Günter Nimtz, Astrid Haibel and Alfons A. Stahlhofen]
Conclusion
Evanescent modes or the tunnelling process are characterized by an imaginary wave number. These special solutions of the Helmholtz and of the Schrödinger equations first noticed in connection with the total reflection were said to have no physical meaning about 200 years ago. Last century the tunnelling problem in quantum mechanics has been described by the phase time approach. The phase time approach yields the group velocity of a wave packet (see e.g. Hartman, 1962). Nowadays the phase time approach is used in network analyzers to determine the group velocity of an electromagnetic wave in devices.
We have reported about superluminal signal velocities in photonic tunnelling. It was observed that the superluminal photonic tunnelling time data measured in the time domain are in agreement with the calculated phase time data. This result is also in agreement with the definition of the barrier transition time given in the Federal Standard 1037 C (NTIA, USA 2000). Thus we have added further credibility to the assumption that the photonic tunnelling results are representative for quantum mechanical tunnelling of particles.
[/QUOTE]
I remain skeptical. I wasn’t aware that the group velocity of evanescent waves was anything special. I have done work on coupling evanecent waves when looking at near-field storage techniques. I’ts going to take a little more reading, but I still think it is unlikely…
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/9 "2007-08-16T22:36:13Z")
I think this is a cut above Steorn’s “Orbo” perpetual-motion machine, but I will await a good peer review and some duplication of experiment before I get excited.
Anyone know what microwaved photons taste like btw? And can you get them in butter or nacho flavored?
-XT
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2007, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/10 "2007-08-16T22:39:28Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme]
Anyone know what microwaved photons taste like btw?
[/QUOTE]
They are an excellent light snack. 😃
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### Author:  [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2007, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/11 "2007-08-16T23:02:56Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
They are an excellent light snack. 😃
[/QUOTE]
For that someone should send your parents a stern letter.
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### Author:  [@wolf\_in\_second\_hand\_clothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_in_second_hand_clothing)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2007, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/12 "2007-08-16T23:05:40Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
I’m not skeptical, I’m just [uncertain.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle)
[/QUOTE]
No fair! They changed the result by measuring it!
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### Author:  [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2007, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/13 "2007-08-16T23:06:21Z")
Actually, they’ve done a few weird things which can push lightspeed, but only under very odd circumstances, circumstances which make it utterly impossible in actual real life.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2007, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/14 "2007-08-16T23:51:28Z")
[QUOTE=Astroboy14]
For that someone should send your parents a stern letter.
[/QUOTE]
I understand there’s few trees in California, but are we likely to find a convenient lampost?
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2007, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/15 "2007-08-17T00:14:00Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit]
Actually, they’ve done a few weird things which can push lightspeed, but only under very odd circumstances, circumstances which make it utterly impossible in actual real life.
[/QUOTE]
A laboratory is as much a part of “real life” as anywhere else.
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### Author:  [@Procyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procyon)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2007, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/16 "2007-08-17T01:20:22Z")
My intention is not to rain on anyone’s parade, but [an article on Ars Technica](http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070816-faster-than-the-speed-of-light-no-i-dont-think-so.html) fairly lucidly analyzes why this experiment, like many that have come before it, is not the end of Einstein’s theory.
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2007, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/17 "2007-08-17T01:29:51Z")
Bottom line: if it doesn’t mean you could transmit information faster than light, no big deal.
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### Author:  [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2007, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/18 "2007-08-17T01:41:05Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace]
Two words: Cold Fusion.
[/QUOTE]
Recent experiments at US Navy research facility in San Diego show this could be real, other groups have duplicated the experiments.
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### Author:  [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2007, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/19 "2007-08-17T04:28:31Z")
[QUOTE=RaftPeople]
Recent experiments at US Navy research facility in San Diego show this could be real, other groups have duplicated the experiments.
[/QUOTE]
That sounds interesting if true, cite?
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### Author:  [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2007, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-physicists-claim-to-have-broken-lightspeed-barrier/415857/20 "2007-08-17T05:41:41Z")
Of course you know this means that a mad German scientist will now use this technology to go back in time and bring back Hitler.
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