# German question: Sie / du **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 16, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423 "2010-12-16T21:13:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/1 "2010-12-16T21:13:25Z")
I was just watching _Die Untergang (Downfall)_. Even though it had English subtitles, I did remember some of my high school German while I was watching. I am wondering why Hitler used the “Sie” form of address to his Generals and staff. Surely he was their superior; shouldn’t he have used “du” when speaking to them? instead? Or am I remembering my German grammar incorrectly? It’s been a while since high school! ---
**Author:** ![Terra1041](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Terra1041](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terra1041)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/2 "2010-12-16T21:16:58Z")
I think “du” is used with friends or close family, and “Sie” for peole you don’t know on a personal level. IANANGS (I Am Not A Native German Speaker) but I studied in Germany for a few months. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/3 "2010-12-16T21:17:08Z")
'Sie" is a formal address, when you don’t know someone enough to be familiar with them intimately (as a friend). “Du” is what you use when it’s a “Heimie” of yours. It’s “Der Untergang”, not “Die”. The German language is full of such nuances. Q ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/4 "2010-12-16T21:18:36Z")
I don’t speak German, but I do speak other languages with a formal/informal distinction (e.g. French). Even though Hitler is his generals’ superior, his interactions with them are still a formal situation, and he (presumably) tries to use polite language with them. So this is why he uses “Sie” with them; he’d probably only use “du” to humiliate them while chewing them out. IOW, it’s not a question of superiors and inferiors, but a question of formal and informal situations, or of polite and impolite language. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/5 "2010-12-16T21:19:53Z")
I’m not a native German speaker, but I believe that, even now, you’d use “Sie” for everyone that you work with, regardless of position in the hierarchy. So, if a general had occasion to address a private, he would use “Sie”. Back 70 or 80 years ago, Germans would have been even stricter in their formality. “Du” is for friends and relations – and, oddly enough, when addressing God. ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/6 "2010-12-16T21:20:34Z")
Sie is plural as well as formal, so if you’re talking to a group of people you use Sie. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/7 "2010-12-16T21:27:44Z")
Also, it takes a while to become familiar enough with a person one sees daily to ask if it’s okay to go to the familiar “Du” with them, and it has to be a mutual consent kinda thing. When I worked for USAir in 1990, stationed in Frankfurt Airport, my co-workers used to “Sie” me and called me “Herr Craig” (“Mr. Craig”). Having at that time lived in the US long enough to be relaxed name-wise, I insisted they call me “Bill”! So then they started calling me “Herr Bill”. But it has to happen kinda spontaneously, this going from “Sie” to “Du”. One person says to the other something such as, “Hey listen, can we just “Du” each other from now on?” There’s a phrase in German for that, but because I am not allowed to post complete sentences, I cannot use it here. Q ---
**Author:** ![Fish\_Cheer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fish_cheer/32/17179_2.png) [@Fish\_Cheer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish_Cheer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/8 "2010-12-16T22:24:03Z")
> [@Manduck](#): > > Sie is plural as well as formal, so if you’re talking to a group of people you use Sie. Not quite. “Sie” is the formal singular and plural equivalent of “you”. The informal plural would be “ihr”. ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/9 "2010-12-16T23:02:37Z")
> [@Fish\_Cheer](#): > > Not quite. “Sie” is the formal singular and plural equivalent of “you”. The informal plural would be “ihr”. I should never have trusted my hazy memory of high school 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/10 "2010-12-16T23:17:25Z")
A friend of mine was in the Army and stationed in Germany in the 1960s. When he first arrived, they gave him and his fellow troops some classes in basic German. His instructor told them, "I’m only going to teach you the formal forms. Since you guys are only going to be here for two years, you won’t be here long enough to know anybody well enough to call them “Du.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/11 "2010-12-16T23:20:45Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > “Du” is for friends and relations – and, oddly enough, when addressing God. That’s very interesting indeed, since the King James Bible is full of “thee” and “thou” for God, despite its informality compared to the formal “you”. I wonder why that would be. A personal relationship with their god? Sounds like a modern concept, not a Jabobean one. ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/12 "2010-12-16T23:28:50Z")
It’s worth pointing out that _du_ is not capitalized in German and _Sie_ is, at least according to the spelling reform not that long ago. Even then, capitalized _Du_ is somewhat archaic and really only persist[s/ed] in written form (e.g. writing a letter to your sister). Mention of the word should be lowercase (‘_du_’) unless you’re drawing the distinction. I’ve also seen uses addressed to god using capital-D, although I think in that case it’s more often adherence to an older form than some special distinction (like English ‘He’ used of God). _Sie_ in the sense discussed is always capitalized, because lower-case _sie_ is a distinct pronoun (used for the third person). ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/13 "2010-12-16T23:37:07Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > It’s worth pointing out that _du_ is not capitalized in German and _Sie_ is, at least according to the spelling reform not that long ago. Even then, capitalized _Du_ is somewhat archaic and really only persist[s/ed] in written form (e.g. writing a letter to your sister). Mention of the word should be lowercase (‘_du_’) unless you’re drawing the distinction. > > I’ve also seen uses addressed to god using capital-D, although I think in that case it’s more often adherence to an older form than some special distinction (like English ‘He’ used of God). > > _Sie_ in the sense discussed is always capitalized, because lower-case _sie_ is a distinct pronoun (used for the third person). See? What’d I tell ya? Just as fucked-up a language as English.🙂 Read Richard Lederer’s Foxen In The Hen Hice sometime, if you don’t believe me! ;)😃 Q ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/14 "2010-12-17T00:56:05Z")
> [@Quasimodem](#): > > One person says to the other something such as, “Hey listen, can we just “Du” each other from now on?” I see what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/15 "2010-12-17T01:12:17Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > . . . A personal relationship with their god? Sounds like a modern concept, not a Jabobean one. Absolutely not a modern concept. Check out the psalms for multiple illustrations. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/16 "2010-12-17T01:22:10Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Absolutely not a modern concept. Check out the psalms for multiple illustrations. Do they imply you should hold God in the psalm of your hand? ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/17 "2010-12-17T02:14:16Z")
[QUOTE=panamajack] _Sie_ in the sense discussed is always capitalized, because lower-case _sie_ is a distinct pronoun (used for the third person). [/QUOTE] That is, the third-person feminine form, meaning “she” or “her”. ([Here’s a handy table](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_pronouns#Personal_pronouns) of the German pronouns.) But “sie”, capitalized or not, is also used for the third-person plural, to mean “they” or “them”. Also, verbs are conjugated the same for “Sie” meaning “you/formal” and “sie” meaning “they”, when those pronouns are the subject of the sentence. (Verbs are conjugated differently for “sie” meaning “she”.) This means that in spoken German (and sometime in written), you have to distinguish the two possible meanings from context, as the grammar won’t help you. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/18 "2010-12-17T02:30:26Z")
[German pronouns](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_pronouns) Look at the German personal pronouns in the table. it gets very messy. 4 sie 2 Sie Go down one more table to “my”. It will blow your mind. This is why I hated German class by third year. German has a gender for every noun that varies the pronoun which also changes for other reasons. English is not as bad. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/19 "2010-12-17T02:37:26Z")
> [@Bytegeist](#): > > Also, verbs are conjugated the same for “Sie” meaning “you/formal” and “sie” meaning “they”, when those pronouns are the subject of the sentence. I noticed that pattern in Spanish, too. Is it common that the formal second person plural conjugates the same as the third person plural? If so, does anyone know why? ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423/20 "2010-12-17T02:53:19Z")
> [@Manduck](#): > > Sie is plural as well as formal, so if you’re talking to a group of people you use Sie. [QUOTE=Fish Cheer] Not quite. “Sie” is the formal singular and plural equivalent of “you”. The informal plural would be “ihr”. [/QUOTE] You would indeed use “ihr” when addressing a group of people, because that’s the plural _second-person_. There is no formal or informal choice to make in that case though. It’s when you address an _individual_, not a group, that you have to choose between “du” and “Sie” based on familiarity, relative social status, and all that stuff. To sum up: English has identical singular and plural second-person pronouns, and it has no formal versus informal forms of address. (It’s always “you/your/yours”, no matter what.) German does care about formal vs. informal, but only for the second-person singular — which is just like many other European languages, such as French. German is peculiar though in that the formal second-person forms are identical (ignoring capitalization in written text) to the _third-person_ plural, not the _second-person_ plural. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question-sie-du/564423.md?page=2)