# German question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 3, 2020, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859 "2020-03-03T13:04:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/1 "2020-03-03T13:04:01Z")
Hi Ich stellte den Stuhl auf den Boden vor die Tür/vor der Tür. Does the accusative case still apply to vor…Tür or only to aux…Boden? What is the rule when it comes to sequences of prepositional phrasing? I’m actively placing the chair on the floor and putting it in front of the door. So it appears to require the accusative case throughout the sentence.If it doesn’t apply, why not? I look forward to your feedback. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/2 "2020-03-03T13:32:19Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > Hi > Ich stellte den Stuhl auf den Boden vor die Tür/vor der Tür. > > Does the accusative case still apply to vor…Tür or only to aux…Boden? What is the rule when it comes to sequences of prepositional phrasing? > > I’m actively placing the chair on the floor and putting it in front of the door. So it appears to require the accusative case throughout the sentence.If it doesn’t apply, why not? > > I look forward to your feedback. Because you are saying where you are placing it, it is accusative. Here’s a pretty good summary. > **[How Do You Use Dual Prepositions in German?](https://www.thoughtco.com/two-way-doubtful-prepositions-in-german-1444444)** > > German dual prepositions can take on both the dative and accusative cases. We teach you how to distinguish the difference. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/3 "2020-03-03T13:34:17Z")
Trouble with your homework? 😉 It is easier if you only look at the “vor” and “auf” and disregard the rest of the sentence. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/4 "2020-03-03T13:52:02Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Trouble with your homework? 😉 > > It is easier if you only look at the “vor” and “auf” and disregard the rest of the sentence. Thank you Maserschmidt and The Librarian. Very helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/5 "2020-03-10T23:55:19Z")
I’m still confused. Do _Tür_ and _Boden_ necessarily both need to be in the accusative? When the chair is placed on the floor, that clearly requires the accusative case. But the floor itself simply exists in front of the door, so I would have thought that it should be _derTür_. That’s just my interpretation, though. Or would this come down to a matter of style, with some native speakers preferring it one way while others prefer the other way? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/6 "2020-03-11T00:03:00Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > I’m still confused. > > Do _Tür_ and _Boden_ necessarily both need to be in the accusative? > When the chair is placed on the floor, that clearly requires the accusative case. But the floor itself simply exists in front of the door, so I would have thought that it should be _derTür_. That’s just my interpretation, though. > > Or would this come down to a matter of style, with some native speakers preferring it one way while others prefer the other way? Missed the edit window: With regard to style, it makes much more sense to me to write _Ich stellte den Stuhl vor die Tür_, since it can be assumed that I put the chair on the floor. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/7 "2020-03-15T12:30:49Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Missed the edit window: With regard to style, it makes much more sense to me to write _Ich stellte den Stuhl vor die Tür_, since it can be assumed that I put the chair on the floor. True. But that was not the question:) “auf” is 3rd of 4th fall. it depends if it is describing a position or an act. > [@some German primary school site](#): > > Wo liegt das Buch? > > Auf dem Tisch.(3. Fall) > > Wohin lege ich das Buch? > > Auf den Tisch. (4. fall). This rule explains why both Tür and Boden is in the 4th Fall. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/8 "2020-03-15T17:19:18Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > True. > > But that was not the question:) > > “auf” is 3rd of 4th fall. it depends if it is describing a position or an act. > > This rule explains why both Tür and Boden is in the 4th Fall. To clarify, 4th case means Accusative, right? Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/9 "2020-03-15T17:32:57Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > To clarify, 4th case means Accusative, right? > > Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk Yes. German cases: First case: nominative (Nominativ) Second case: genitive (Genitiv) Third case: dative (Dativ) Fourth case: accusative (Akkusativ) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/10 "2020-03-15T18:53:51Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Yes. German cases: And to translate them to rough equivalents in English grammar: First case: nominative (Nominativ) — subject case Second case: genitive (Genitiv) — possessive case Third case: dative (Dativ) — indirect object case Fourth case: accusative (Akkusativ) — direct object case ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/11 "2020-03-15T19:19:36Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And to translate them to rough equivalents in English grammar: > > First case: nominative (Nominativ) — subject case > Second case: genitive (Genitiv) — possessive case > Third case: dative (Dativ) — indirect object case > Fourth case: accusative (Akkusativ) — direct object case Maybe quite useful for understanding and to memorize: German children in primary school when first taught about the grammatical cases, learn the following by relating the cases to their respective interrogatives: First case (nominative) : Wer-Fall Second case (genetive): Wessen-Fall Third case (dative): Wem-Fall Fourth case (accusative): Wen-Fall ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/12 "2020-04-16T21:43:29Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And to translate them to rough equivalents in English grammar: > > First case: nominative (Nominativ) — subject case > Second case: genitive (Genitiv) — possessive case > Third case: dative (Dativ) — indirect object case > Fourth case: accusative (Akkusativ) — direct object case Is this case numbering scheme fairly recent in origin? When I began studying German, much longer ago than I care to tell, our teachers and textbooks didn’t use it. Instead, cases were just listed by name, and almost always on the following order: nom-acc-dat-gen. This is probably the most intuitive approach for 2L lanuage learners. OTOH, books intended for scholarly study, e.g. textbooks on Old English or Old High German did usually use the nom-gen-dat-acc ordering. Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/13 "2020-04-16T23:42:41Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Is this case numbering scheme fairly recent in origin? When I began studying German, much longer ago than I care to tell, our teachers and textbooks didn’t use it. Instead, cases were just listed by name, and almost always on the following order: nom-acc-dat-gen. This is probably the most intuitive approach for 2L lanuage learners. > > OTOH, books intended for scholarly study, e.g. textbooks on Old English or Old High German did usually use the nom-gen-dat-acc ordering. > > Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk When I was in high schol, we didn’t have the numbering system, but the order was Nominative-Genetive-Dative-Accusative. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/14 "2020-04-17T02:43:15Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Is this case numbering scheme fairly recent in origin? When I began studying German, much longer ago than I care to tell, our teachers and textbooks didn’t use it. Instead, cases were just listed by name, and almost always on the following order: nom-acc-dat-gen. This is probably the most intuitive approach for 2L lanuage learners. > > OTOH, books intended for scholarly study, e.g. textbooks on Old English or Old High German did usually use the nom-gen-dat-acc ordering. > > Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk I’m a 52 old native German, and I learned this numbering scheme at school. It’s definitely the one used in Germany for a long time, long before my school days. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/15 "2020-04-17T02:52:47Z")
OK, I looked a bit further, because I was interested how this numbering came to be, and I found this thread on[another message board](https://german.stackexchange.com/questions/7861/numbering-cases), with one poster saying: > [@](#): > > That is, N-G-D-A is based on Latin system. Sorry, I got no better cite. ETA: for those who know German, another cite: [Nummerierung der 4 Fälle - wer-weiss-was.de](https://www.wer-weiss-was.de/t/nummerierung-der-4-faelle/5624017) ---
**Author:** ![Remember\_me](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/82dd89/32.png) [@Remember\_me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Remember_me)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/16 "2020-04-17T09:59:07Z")
I am a 42 year old native German speaker, and in school we first learned the descriptive terms “Wen-Fall”, “Wem-Fall”, etc. Only later we were taught that there also are latin words (accusativ, etc) for this. The numbering scheme that Einsteins Hund is referring to was also used, but not as frequent, as far as I remember. That might be regional, as each Bundesland has its own schooling regulations, or it might be age. Between the 1970s and 1980s there were vast changes in how things were taught and what was taught in school. That said: I have mostly forgotten all about which case is called what in latin or in numbers - I could apply the descriptive terms, as they are, of course, descriptive. With respect to the OT: I would say that both versions of the sentence are correct. “Ich stellte den Stuhl auf den Boden vor der Tür.” Here, “vor der Tür” claifies the location of “Boden”. Ich stellte den Stuhl auf den Boden vor die Tür. Here, “vor die Tür” clarifies the location of my action. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/18 "2020-04-17T11:11:43Z")
Spam reported ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/19 "2020-04-17T11:49:19Z")
One traditional Latin order of names goes: nominativus, genetivus, dativus, accusativus, vocativus, ablativus ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/20 "2020-04-17T12:03:51Z")
I don’t know anything about German, but the reason Latin considers the genitive to be the “second case” is because, given a noun’s nominative and genitive forms, you can completely determine its declension and root, and thus determine all of its other forms. The full order I learned was nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, ablative, with the much more rarely used vocative and locative not really part of the order, but just sort of floating around elsewhere. And it’s hardly surprising that German would lack an equivalent of the ablative, since all it was used for was the object of some prepositions, but other prepositions just use the accusative. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-question/848859/21 "2020-04-17T12:06:52Z")
Of course other languages have other traditional orderings, and a particular book might use a different order anyway. But it is not implausible that someone writing a German grammar may have copied the order and even the names of the cases found in well-known Latin and Greek textbooks. The question is which influential German grammar this might be, or if multiple authors independently adhered to it.