# German Remote Controlled Glider Bombs at Anzio **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 23, 2017, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666 "2017-06-23T03:12:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/1 "2017-06-23T03:12:42Z")
[Video Here.](https://youtu.be/Tl1ehSWGPvY?t=651) What the Hell is that? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/2 "2017-06-23T03:35:20Z")
[The Fritz X.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_X) Or more likely the [Henschel Hs 293.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_293) ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/3 "2017-06-23T03:43:33Z")
Thanks, I was hoping to start a discussion. Did these things work? Did we have anything similar? I know that we had remote control airplanes like the ome that Joe Kennedy Jr. died in. I’m wondering about primative smart bombs. ---
**Author:** ![yendis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed8c4c/32.png) [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/4 "2017-06-23T07:41:38Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Thanks, I was hoping to start a discussion. > > Did these things work? > > Did we have anything similar? I know that we had remote control airplanes like the ome that Joe Kennedy Jr. died in. I’m wondering about primative smart bombs. Yes the US had the [Azon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azon) a visually guided bomb like the Fritz-X and the US Navy had the [Bat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASM-N-2_Bat) a more advanced radar guided weapon. The Germans had some success with theirs, best result being the sinking of the Italian battleship Roma. And the US weapons were used for precision targets like bridges as well as Japanese ships. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/5 "2017-06-23T15:05:14Z")
> [@yendis](#): > > Yes the US had the [Azon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azon) a visually guided bomb like the Fritz-X and the US Navy had the [Bat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASM-N-2_Bat) a more advanced radar guided weapon. > > The Germans had some success with theirs, best result being the sinking of the Italian battleship Roma. > > And the US weapons were used for precision targets like bridges as well as Japanese ships. The AZON (AZimuth ONly) bomb was purely a 'Left/Right" guided weapon - you still had get the range right, or you’d miss. It was largely used as an anti-infrastructure bomb, tagetted at bridges and such, where it had some success. The Bat was only lacking an engine to be a real cruise missile - It had every other necessary aspect - Radar homing, autopilot, and flight control surfaces. Against shipping, the Bat was moderately successful, but land clutter was detrimental and would generally cause it to fail. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/6 "2017-06-23T17:19:01Z")
The Japanese solution to guidance was more primitive but more effective: put a pilot in it. The primary failing of the [_Ohka_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yokosuka_MXY7_Ohka) was that it required heavily laden G4M Betty bombers to get within 20 miles of the target. Few Bettys returned , even from successful missions which by necessity were mostly against the radar picket destroyers. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/7 "2017-06-23T18:14:34Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Few Bettys returned , even from successful missions which by necessity were mostly against the radar picket destroyers. The Radar Pickets started off as accidental targets, but they were the _right_ targets. Open a hole in the radar picket, and you can run a full-up raid of convential aircraft or kamikaze aircraft (or both, for truly frightening effectiveness) in to dangerous proximity. This happened several times (only rarely by Ohkas), and the radar pickets became deliberate targets, and dangerous duty. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/8 "2017-06-23T18:25:11Z")
15 DD’s were sunk at Okinawa alone. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/9 "2017-06-23T19:36:10Z")
There was a reason they were called “tin cans.” Not a whole lot of armor on a destroyer. There are numerous instances of US aircraft sinking/smashing/ruining Japanese destroyers with only .50 cal machine gun fire. OK, so there were 10-12 machine guns in the nose of the plane, but still… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/10 "2017-06-23T20:24:41Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > There was a reason they were called “tin cans.” Not a whole lot of armor on a destroyer. There are numerous instances of US aircraft sinking/smashing/ruining Japanese destroyers with only .50 cal machine gun fire. OK, so there were 10-12 machine guns in the nose of the plane, but still… 😛 Frome a damage-control perspective, a LOT of small holes can be much worse than one big hole. Sure, the big hole lets in water faster than an equivalent area of small holes (edge effects), but generally, it’s easier to patch, plug, fother, or isolate a single large hole. A bunch of small holes have to be hunted down each one, and many will have penetrated multiple compartments, wrecking or damaging important systems - which can’t be brought back up until ALL the little holes have been found and dealt with. Meanwhile, your tin can is sinking like a Swiss cheese canoe… Oh, and those deep-penetrating rounds might have found something flamible or explosive along the way. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/11 "2017-06-23T21:31:29Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > There was a reason they were called “tin cans.” Not a whole lot of armor on a destroyer. There are numerous instances of US aircraft sinking/smashing/ruining Japanese destroyers with only .50 cal machine gun fire. OK, so there were 10-12 machine guns in the nose of the plane, but still… 😛 Bullshit. Name one. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/12 "2017-06-23T22:10:47Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > The Japanese solution to guidance was more primitive but more effective: put a pilot in it. The primary failing of the [_Ohka_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yokosuka_MXY7_Ohka) was that it required heavily laden G4M Betty bombers to get within 20 miles of the target. Few Bettys returned , even from successful missions which by necessity were mostly against the radar picket destroyers. No, the issue was one Ohka per ship. Not all aircraft got through the AA fire. Assigning 2 or more to attack at the same moment? Devastating. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/13 "2017-06-23T22:12:23Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Bullshit. Name one. Not directed at me, but I do kmow that the 332nd FGflying P-47’s did attack a German destroyer in Italy in 1944 and claimed to have sunk it with just gunfire. Others have said that the sinking was due to an earlier bomb hit and they administered a coup de grace. I don’t think a fighter’s guns could sink a destroyer. I do think they could damage her so much that she would be easy prey for bombers or subs or other ships. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/14 "2017-06-23T22:21:26Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > [Video Here.](https://youtu.be/Tl1ehSWGPvY?t=651) > > What the Hell is that? The German glide bombs trailed greyish smoke from their tracking flares. That looks to me (~10:57) like a conventional a/c hit by AA and trailing a wide black smoke trail. The a/c seen a few seconds before seem to be Fw 190 fighter bombers, realistic for the Italian campaign though who knows if actually from when the documentary says. However, the sequence around 10:00 shows USS Savanah CL-42 struck by a Fritz X dropped by a Do-217K-2 of III./KG 100 September 11, 1943 off Salerno which is what the documentary is talking about in that whole section, rather than Anzio. The bomb hit the 6" turret immediately forward of the bridge, penetrated all the way to the lower handling room and exploded, but flooding was so rapid the main magazines didn’t go up and destroy the ship as had happened to the Italian battleship Roma two days earlier. Savannah doesn’t even look badly damaged in the sequence, but 197 of the crew were killed and permanent repairs and overhaul were not completed till September 1944. Still version: [![](http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/042/0404215.jpg) ](http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/042/0404215.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/15 "2017-06-23T23:21:01Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Bullshit. Name one. Mt father flew B-25s during WW2. If he said they sank a few destroyers with gunfire, I’m inclined to believe him. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/16 "2017-06-23T23:41:45Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Not directed at me, but I do kmow that the 332nd FGflying P-47’s did attack a German destroyer in Italy in 1944 and claimed to have sunk it with just gunfire. > > Others have said that the sinking was due to an earlier bomb hit and they administered a coup de grace. > I don’t think a fighter’s guns could sink a destroyer. I do think they could damage her so much that she would be easy prey for bombers or subs or other ships. It was a WWI era 770 ton torpedo boat, the former Italian [_Giuseppe Missori_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosolino_Pilo-class_destroyer) renamed _TA22_ and it was only put out of action, not sunk. From the “10-12 machine guns in the nose of the plane” I assume the reference is to The Battle of the Bismarck Sea; the Japanese lost 4 destroyers. Every one of them was put out of action and lost to bombing: [_Arashio_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_destroyer_Arashio): > [@](#): > > During the Battle of the Bismarck Sea, she was damaged by three bombs from a USAAF B-25C Mitchell bomber named “Chatter Box” on 3 March, which damaged her rudder, causing a collision with troopship Nojima Maru. The destroyer Yukikaze took off her 176 survivors, which did not include her captain, Lieutenant Commander Hideo Kuboki. Her abandoned hulk was sunk by United States Navy aircraft at position > > 07°15′S 148°30′ECoordinates: 07°15′S 148°30′E approximately 55 nautical miles (102 km; 63 mi) southeast of Finschhafen, New Guinea[6] She was removed from the navy list on 1 April 1943. [_Shirayuki_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_destroyer_Shirayuki_(1928)): > [@](#): > > During the Battle of the Bismarck Sea on 1–4 March, Shirayuki was flagship for Rear Admiral Masatomi Kimura, leading a troop convoy from Rabaul to Lae. In an Allied air attack on 3 March, a skip-bomb exploded in her aft magazine, severing her stern, and killing 32 crewmen. Shirayuki sank 55 nautical miles (102 km) southeast of Finschhafen at position > > 07°15′S 148°30′ECoordinates: 07°15′S 148°30′E. The survivors, who included Admiral Kimura and her captain Commander Sugawara were rescued by Shikinami.[10] [_Asashio_](http://www.combinedfleet.com/asashi_t.htm): > [@](#): > > 1-3 March: Battle of the Bismarck Sea > Escorted troop convoy from Rabaul towards Lae. Sunk: after weathering the first waves of Allied air attacks on 3 March, was bombed later in the day while attempting to rescue ARASHIO and NOJIMA survivors. Lost with all hands, including Comdesdiv 8 (Captain Sato Yasuo [44]), 45 miles southeast of Finschhafen (07-15 S, 148-15 E). [_Tokitsukaze_](http://www.combinedfleet.com/tokits_t.htm): > [@](#): > > 0809 TOKITSUKAZE is struck by one or more skip bombs in starboard side that floods the starboard engine rooms. (Apparently shatters the centerline bulkhead, as port floods too.). Goes dead in the water and becomes unnavigable. She begins to list to starboard and settle in the water. However TOKITSUKAZE is floating on an even keel and in little danger of sinking. > > - 1040 Because proceeding with the operation is of utmost importance, and more attacks are expected, the decision was made to transfer all troops and crew to YUKIKAZE which comes alongside. Commander of the 18th Army, Lt.General Adachi and his staff, the 150 soldiers, Commander Motokura (to C.O. HAMANAMI) and almost the entire crew are removed. The TOKITSUKAZE is not scuttled, but simply allowed to drift away. The hope and plan is to return for her later. > - 1305-1320 Drifting TOKITSUKAZE is attacked by enemy bombers in the afternoon wave of attacks. The Americans claim further hits, but the damage is unknown. At the same time, ASASHIO involved in rescue of survivors to her east is bombed and sunk. [1] > - 1800 RADM Kimura aboard SHIKINAMI - having transferred all survivors to HATSUYUKI - leads ASAGUMO and YUKIKAZE back south through Dampier Strait to go to the rescue of survivors and the abandoned TOKITSUKAZE. > > 4 March: > Japanese destroyers return to the battlefield seeking survivors and to determine salvage prospects. > > •Action: > > - 0100 YUKIKAZE locates the drifting TOKITSUKAZE. Twenty survivors are found alive aboard and are rescued. However, because YUKIKAZE had earlier transhipped 170 survivors from sinking derelict of ARASHIO and many survivors are still nearby in the sea, it is apparently decided to not try to tow, nor even scuttle TOKITSUKAZE. The abandoned destroyer is once more left alone to drift. The darkness and strong current also discourage further work. The three destroyers discontinue searches to get out of range by daylight. > - 0710 The derelict TOKITSUKAZE is bombed by a single B-25 [65th Bomb Squadron] which drops two 500-pound bombs. One scores a direct hit near the bridge, confirmed by a famous photograph. The destroyer is still upright but the fantail is coming awash. Even after this hit, she does not settle much further. [2] > - A Japanese plane of the 253rd Air Group searching for survivors sights TOKITSUKAZE still afloat, “listing to starboard.” To finish her off and prevent capture, Nine dive-bombers and fourteen fighters are launched. They bomb TOKITSUKAZE around midday, but still fail to sink her. [3] > > •Sunk: > > - 1350 Nine B-25s attack TOKITSUKAZE making runs from starboard to port. Hits are scored that finally sink the derelict. TOKITSUKAZE sinks in Huon Gulf 55 miles southeast of Finschhafen (07-15 S, 148-15 E). ETA: I’m inclined to believe historical records, not simply “my father once said”. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/17 "2017-06-23T23:43:28Z")
I am sure he believed they did ( plus many B-25 had a 75mm cannon installed and that \*would \* fuck up a Destroyer) . However post war analysis has shown that pilots on all sides overestimated damage and kills to the enemy especially ships. Even when they were earnestly trying to get best and accurate assessment: ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/18 "2017-06-24T00:54:55Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Bullshit. Name one. [B-26 Marauder Gunship](http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=91) > [@](#): > > Armament / Mission Payload > > B-26B: > 6 OR 8 x 12.7mm machine guns in forward-fixed nose assembly > 2 x 12.7mm machine guns in remote-controlled dorsal barbette. > 2 x 12.7mm machine guns in remote-controlled ventral barbette. > > B-26C: > 2 x 12.7mm machine guns in nose position > 6 x 12.7mm machine guns in wings > 2 x 12.7mm machine guns in remote-controlled dorsal barbette. > 2 x 12.7mm machine guns in remote-controlled ventral barbette. > > Up to 4,000lbs of internal ordnance with a further 8,000 of under wing ordnance held externally. > > Additional: > 4 x dual 12.7mm machine gun “packs” underwing (two-guns per pack for a total of eight possible underwing gun positions). > 8 OR 14 x 5" rockets > 2 x bombs held under wing > 2 x fuel tanks held under wing You’re going to have to try harder. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/19 "2017-06-24T00:57:50Z")
That is, **Dissonance** , if you follow the details: Standard 8 fixed forward-firing .50cal M-2 machine guns, with up to four more dual-mounts as optional equipment. Or: Up to 16 forward-firing .50cal M-2 machine guns. B-25s were sometimes similarly equipped. Also, some added 75mm cannon. You were saying? ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666/20 "2017-06-24T01:01:01Z")
[Here’s a B-25 with the 75mm gun](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEek5IvGYKg) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-remote-controlled-glider-bombs-at-anzio/789666.md?page=2)