# German "sovereign citizen" gets their driver's license removed **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 20, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609 "2017-03-20T14:18:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/1 "2017-03-20T14:18:13Z")
Oh man, this made my day. So in Germany, we’ve recently had a spate of people acting under the header of “Reichsburger”. Think something of an analogue to “Sovereign Citizen” or “Freeman of the land” types, who believe (for _utterly_ demented reasons - and yes, you can bet that antisemitism plays a part) that the laws simply do not apply to them. They typically react to minor court cases by flooding the courts with absurd complaints which the court must nevertheless legally respond to. Well, this time, a local agency had enough. The article is [in German](https://www.vice.com/de/article/ein-amt-in-thuringen-hat-eine-methode-gegen-reichsburger-terror-gefunden?utm_source=vicefbdeads&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=internal), but the gist of it: the agency declared the Reichsburger “obviously mentally deranged” and as a result immediately canceled all of his driver’s licenses. _Fucking hell_. That made my day. 😃 The man proceeded to take the agency to a court whose legitimacy he has made it clear in the past he rejected, apparently not seeing any irony whatsoever in this approach. The state supreme court of Thüringen ruled that yes, there was pretty obviously something pointing to a serious mental defect in this person, and so they didn’t get their license back, and had to also pay for the court costs. This is such an awesome strategy that I’m shocked nobody has tried it before. I mean, have you guys read the crap SovCit fuckos put out? The court case described this man’s writings as such, translated here for your amusement: The writings of this so-called “Reichsbürger” to the [rough german equivalent of the DMV], whose actual contents are virtually incomprehensible, displays, beneath the mess of paragraphs and court cases, a completely disturbed view of the world. As a result, this raises serious concerns of the ability of someone with a possible psychosis to drive safely. The person in question, in addition to the court bill, now also requires a psychological analysis to be able to continue driving. This made my day, and I seriously hope other agencies around Germany follow suit. 😃 Show these fuckers that acting like a fucking crazy person may have the consequence of being _treated_ like a fucking crazy person. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/2 "2017-03-20T15:15:27Z")
Insufficient data. If in fact a driving license is routinely denied a person who does not meet certain psychiatric criteria, then it can be properly denied on the strength of a professional psychiatric opinion. We do not know (absent a clear translation of the article into English. assuming the article even addresses that point) whether the person is certifiably psychotic so as to be a threat to public safety when behind the wheel, or if the court and DMV are simply punishing a person for having a contrarian view of the law. Do they think that if they take away his DL, he will stop bothering them with frivolous litigation? Or just trying to think of ways to get revenge? There is also in the USA a precedent (Crain v. Commissioner) that a person who files a frivolous lawsuit can be subjected to the court costs. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/3 "2017-03-20T15:23:58Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > If in fact a driving license is routinely denied a person who does not meet certain psychiatric criteria, then it can be properly denied on the strength of a professional psychiatric opinion. I can already tell you that the response to that “if” is “yes”, or at least it is supposed to be. The psychiatric parts of the medical exams aren’t particularly onerous in any of the countries where I’ve heard them described or undertaken them (which includes Germany), but in many countries (again, including Germany) someone that’s incoherent isn’t supposed to drive; someone that’s incoherent for reasons other than temporarily being under the influence isn’t supposed to have a driving license. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/4 "2017-03-20T18:03:54Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Do they think that if they take away his DL, he will stop bothering them with frivolous litigation? Well, he can still bother them, but he’ll be taking the bus to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/5 "2017-03-20T18:19:06Z")
Will not having a driver’s license impact this man in any way? Surely if he doesn’t think the laws and the courts apply to him then he also rejects the authority of the state to license his guaranteed right to locomote on arterials of traditional passageway, or whatever. The license probably carries the sigil of his fictitious corporate nonbeinghood, anyway. And besides, the picture is watching him! And no discussion of German driver’s licenses is complete without [this clip](https://youtu.be/md0mUnd9QPk). ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/6 "2017-03-20T18:51:04Z")
In Germany, being crazy is a detriment to driving. In America, it’s a requirement. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/7 "2017-03-20T19:00:01Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > The man proceeded to take the agency to a court whose legitimacy he has made it clear in the past he rejected, apparently not seeing any irony whatsoever in this approach. That’s what always gets me about this particular form of insanity. These nuts are always invoking the law even as they claim the law has no authority. And they appear to believe in what they’re doing; they’re not doing it in a sense of “I’ll use my enemy’s weapons against him”. I’m waiting for the day some judge issues a ruling like _“The defendant claims that the law doesn’t exist and therefore he cannot be held responsible for his speeding ticket. I am upholding the defendant’s argument. I am further directing the bailiff to take the defendant out into the hall and shoot him as there is no legal authority which prohibits us from doing so.”_ ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/8 "2017-03-20T19:05:36Z")
“Discharging a firearm within the city limits.” ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/9 "2017-03-22T01:43:17Z")
How about: Hang by the neck until dead? I’ll bet that one is still on the books somewhere… ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/10 "2017-03-22T04:54:53Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I can already tell you that the response to that “if” is “yes”, or at least it is supposed to be. The psychiatric parts of the medical exams aren’t particularly onerous in any of the countries where I’ve heard them described or undertaken them (which includes Germany), but in many countries (again, including Germany) someone that’s incoherent isn’t supposed to drive; someone that’s incoherent for reasons other than temporarily being under the influence isn’t supposed to have a driving license. In that case, there is no story here. He has been adjudicated to be medically incompetent to drive, and so have a lot of other people, and their licenses were revoked. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/11 "2017-03-22T05:26:31Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Insufficient data. If in fact a driving license is routinely denied a person who does not meet certain psychiatric criteria, then it can be properly denied on the strength of a professional psychiatric opinion. We do not know (absent a clear translation of the article into English. assuming the article even addresses that point) whether the person is certifiably psychotic so as to be a threat to public safety when behind the wheel, or if the court and DMV are simply punishing a person for having a contrarian view of the law. There’s no evidence that this person is deranged beyond his view of the law. So yeah, I’d say “punishing a person for having a contrarian view of the law” pretty much sums it up. Obviously there’s no _real_ connection between believing that the modern German state is an illegitimate corporate entity run by a globalist zionist conspiracy and being psychologically unfit to drive a car… But it is a very good way to inform people like this that their insane bullshit will not be tolerated. 😃 > [@jtur88](#): > > In that case, there is no story here. He has been adjudicated to be medically incompetent to drive, and so have a lot of other people, and their licenses were revoked. Hence: mundane pointless stuff I must share. 😛 But really, this is less “obvious psycho loses license” and more “9/11 truther loses license for being obnoxiously trutherish”. > [@](#): > > Do they think that if they take away his DL, he will stop bothering them with frivolous litigation? Or just trying to think of ways to get revenge? I’m pretty sure the idea is that if Reichsbürger start seeing real consequences for their inane bullshit, they might have to stop and take a nice long look at themselves. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Will not having a driver’s license impact this man in any way? Surely if he doesn’t think the laws and the courts apply to him then he also rejects the authority of the state to license his guaranteed right to locomote on arterials of traditional passageway, or whatever. The license probably carries the sigil of his fictitious corporate nonbeinghood, anyway. > > And besides, the picture is watching him! > > And no discussion of German driver’s licenses is complete without [this clip](https://youtu.be/md0mUnd9QPk). Well, driving after having your license removed can get you a _real_ punishment. Speeding is a thing, but if you drive after having your license revoked, you’re looking at major fines and possibly jail time, and even a reichsbürger isn’t generally stupid enough to pretend that just because he thinks the state has no legitimate authority, they can’t throw him in jail. I’m guessing there’s a reason that this tool, upon realizing he done fucked up, immediately took the case to a court whose legitimacy he rejects. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/12 "2017-03-22T05:40:38Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > There’s no evidence that this person is deranged beyond his view of the law. So yeah, I’d say “punishing a person for having a contrarian view of the law” pretty much sums it up. Obviously there’s no _real_ connection between believing that the modern German state is an illegitimate corporate entity run by a globalist zionist conspiracy and being psychologically unfit to drive a car… I rather disagree on this point. If the person rejects the authority of the courts, one would have to assume that he considers all these arbitrary laws that try to oppress him must have no legitimate mechanism of enforcement, hence he can basically decide for himself what is acceptable. Most people fudge things like speed limits and stop signs, but if all traffic laws are just for those clueless sheeple, eventually this person is going to cause a serious problem. It is not “punishment” for contrarian views, it is a matter of trying to protect everyone else from a potential hazard. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/13 "2017-03-22T12:48:12Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > In that case, there is no story here. He has been adjudicated to be medically incompetent to drive, and so have a lot of other people, and their licenses were revoked. The difference in this case is that he wasn’t deemed incompetent by a doctor doing his law-ordained checkups, but motu proprio by a judge. He’s been deemed legally incompetent to drive by reason of evident insanity, but not medically incompetent (either in the sense of “by a doctor” or “to make his own medical decisions”). ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/14 "2017-03-22T17:33:47Z")
Do these particular people ever identify the Reich of which they claim to be citizens? It would hardly sit with what I understand the US notion of “sovereign citizen” to be claiming - a better translation into German might be “Souveränbürger” or “unabhängiger Bürger”. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/15 "2017-03-22T17:53:05Z")
Either way “Reichs-burger” is now on the short-list for names if I ever decide to open a restaurant. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/16 "2017-03-22T20:21:08Z")
I thought the judge was going to say that if he isn’t a German citizen then he can’t have a German licence, can’t have it both ways. This is also good though! ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/17 "2017-03-22T22:38:49Z")
> [@Atomic\_Alex](#): > > I thought the judge was going to say that if he isn’t a German citizen then he can’t have a German licence, can’t have it both ways. > > This is also good though! But you don’t need to be a German citizen to get a drivers license. You only need to be a lawfully-admitted person with a legal right to reside in Germany. I’ve had drivers licenses in three couintties, but only been a citizen of one. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/18 "2017-03-22T22:57:01Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > In Germany, being crazy is a detriment to driving. In America, it’s a requirement. In Italy, it’s not a requirement as such, since you don’t need to impose something that comes naturally to everyone anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-sovereign-citizen-gets-their-drivers-license-removed/782609/19 "2017-03-24T07:27:10Z")
Here in America, the sovereign citizen types often don’t have a driving license, and claim they don’t have to have one, because 1) I’m not driving, but ‘traveling’, or 2) I’m a sovereign citizen, so your laws don’t apply to me. So taking away their license wouldn’t matter – they may not have one anyway.