# German woman on tv: "Southern Europeans are not as disciplined as us" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2011, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545 "2011-05-28T08:21:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/41 "2011-05-28T22:17:18Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > France is a mix of north and south. Founded by the Franks, a Germanic tribe and also influenced by Danish Vikings, especially Normandy. No matter what kind of culture we are, can’t deny that we are prone to disorganized messes. We like it better that way 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/42 "2011-05-28T22:17:55Z")
> [@Docta\_G](#): > > “Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, but at least it was disciplined.” Why wasn’t the armies of fascist leaders like Mussolini and Franco as well organized as their German counterpart? ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/43 "2011-05-28T22:22:12Z")
> [@Apollon](#): > > It’s not racism if it’s actually true. But even if untrue, it would still not be racism, because southern Europeans and northern Europeans are still the same race (for most definitions of “race”). That lame “its not racism because I’m not shitting on a race but on an ethnicity/religion” excuse is still being used today? There’s a tradition in Northern Europe (especially UK and Germany) since the advent of pseudo-scientific racism in the XIXth century, with anyone not “Northern” (whatever the fuck that’s supposed to mean, usually there are glimpses of tall blue-eyed blondes involved) more or less considered as swarthy and hairy spineless monkeys. Ironically, the same people that feel it reflects reality are the exact same ones that go on babbling about them being the direct heirs of ancient Greek and Roman cultures… ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/44 "2011-05-28T22:25:55Z")
While it may sound somewhat bigoted for North American sensitivities I’d say, having spent some time in Southern Europe and in Austria and Bavaria, that really those at which this “insult” is directed take it more as a confirmation of their cultural attitudes and less as a stingy critique of their life-style. What I’m saying is both sides know that she pretty much said what everybody already knows but, as always, it kinda gets viral once it is stated and broadcast publicly. At the same time, I assure you you don’t want to hear Southerners (that would be European ones) reflecting on Northerners. However, in Germany, as far as elements of communal living – schools, roads, health care, jobs, respect for public good, etc. – is by far simply the best in Europe. And you can enjoy it fully as long as you are German by blood. Now, the reason I’m not there is that, unlike in Canada or US, even a lifetime is not sufficient to be regarded as “native” so it’s better for an immigrant to come to an immigrant country rather than spend whole life differentiating yourself from your Southern origins. So, yes, I can respect and admire Germans but really I could not live there and feel 2nd class citizen all my life. ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/45 "2011-05-28T22:39:27Z")
Is it fair to say that this difference in discipline is also obvious when comparing Latin America to English speaking America? North America resembles North Europe and South America South Europe. What a coincidence! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/46 "2011-05-28T23:12:16Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > Is it fair to say that this difference in discipline is also obvious when comparing Latin America to English speaking America? North America resembles North Europe and South America South Europe. What a coincidence! I think it is fair, but not for the reasons many assume. The best explanation does not reach for race or culture differences, it is how the march of time is seen by the people, and it changes the nearest one gets to the equator: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/A3oIiH7BLmg/maxresdefault.jpg "RSA ANIMATE: The Secret Powers of Time") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3oIiH7BLmg) > [@](#): > > Professor Philip Zimbardo conveys how our individual perspectives of time affect our work, health and well-being. Time influences who we are as a person, how we view relationships and how we act in the world. > [@](#): > > My family comes from Sicily, and in Italy there is a political movement called La Lega to cut Italy in half, to have north Italy and south Italy cut just below Tuscany. The people in the north say, “We do all the work. The people in the south are lazy they want to have children three hour dinners etc.” The people in the south say, “They’re not Italian, they’re German-Austrian. They eat yogurt instead of pasta. They take their lunch in a paper bag and in the recent election the leader got 14% of the national vote.” > > It turns out to be accurate; we have done research. The people in the north tend to be future-oriented, people in the south tend to be more past-oriented or present hedonistic. > > And so my family is Sicilian and I go back every year. I started an educational foundation. We send high school kids to college, set up computer labs, and I’m talking about some of the stuff and a man comes up to me and says, “I’m a poet. I live with words. It wasn’t until I heard you talk that I realized there’s no future tense verb is Sicilian dialect.” > > I say, “What do you mean?” > > “There was, is, there is no will be,” he said. “That’s why nothing gets done.” ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/47 "2011-05-28T23:25:24Z")
> [@Docta\_G](#): > > “Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, but at least it was disciplined.” Yeah, well, you know, that’s just like, uh, your opinion, man. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/48 "2011-05-29T01:05:14Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Facts are facts—and there is nothing racist about pointing them out. > It’s a very, very sad aspect of our modern world that people are afraid to say out loud that some cultures are better than others. Maybe so (I’m not actually sure), but in any case, I’m not even sure it applies here. A disciplined, rational, sober group may consider a permissive, passionate, excitable group to be inferior because they are undisciplined, irrational and immoderate. A permissive, passionate, excitable group may consider a disciplined, rational, sober group to be inferior because they are uptight, calculating and joyless. Who is better, and who is right? ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/49 "2011-05-29T03:18:27Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > There are lots of variants of this. My favourite is “In heaven the police are English, the cooks are French, the cars are German, and the women are Italian. In hell the police are German, the cooks are English, the cars are French, and the women are Italian.” Or, the ultimate putdown in history: “I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men and German to my horse.” (Attributed to Charles V) On topic: For Germans to put down another country for being less disciplined than them is just redundant. That’s like China laying into other countries for being less repressive or the US lambasting others for having such tiny militaries. It’s a trait they pride themselves on and it’s a byword the country is recognized by. Having a distinguishing trait, as a country, is normal - I can name one for pretty much any country in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/50 "2011-05-29T03:27:30Z")
Isn’t it mostly understood that Germans know how to organize things, and Italians know how to have fun? I don’t think it’s a racist comment. It might even be mostly true. ---
**Author:** ![AdmiralCrunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@AdmiralCrunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdmiralCrunch)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/51 "2011-05-29T05:09:32Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > One of the things she pointed out was “The southern Europeans are not as disciplined as us northern Europeans”. I was really astonished by this statement, believing it was undoubtedly a racist remark. But then I reassured myself that the channel I was watching is famous for its political correctness, and would never indulge in bigotry. > … > 1:20 in this clip: [http://svtplay.se/v/2430328/rapport/tyskland\_\_oro\_for\_grekland?sb,k103266,6,f,155704](http://svtplay.se/v/2430328/rapport/tyskland__oro_for_grekland?sb,k103266,6,f,155704) Is it the woman in the sunglasses? Correct me if I’m wrong, but she doesn’t mention southern Europeans at all. Rough translation: We Northern Europeans have a completely different understanding of discipline, transformation?, and stateliness. I believe for such nations that it was sometimes too much, too fast. I’m not sure what definition of “Northern Europe” includes Munich and not Ireland, but praising Northern Europeans is different than comparing them directly to Southern Europeans. So your problem with this channel and their policy of airing interviews with people who say “undoubtedly racist” things seems settled. So let’s pretend she did say your quote and go from there. Doesn’t seem racist. As far as accuracy, it seems like there’s something to it as far as jaywalking, auto inspections, and punctuality are concerned. As far as bailouts and economies go, it’s more complicated. As[the Economist](http://www.economist.com/node/18560535?story_id=18560535) put it: > [@](#): > > Germany’s vulnerability is clear: its banks are owed some €230 billion. These numbers would ratchet up further were Spain to default. > … > > But compared with the potential costs of full-blown default, the amounts that Germany and other countries are likely to put into the three bail-out packages look like excellent value (see chart). The rescuers need not be quite so sanctimonious. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/52 "2011-05-29T10:33:35Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > There’s a tradition in Northern Europe (especially UK and Germany) since the advent of pseudo-scientific racism in the XIXth century, with anyone not “Northern” (whatever the fuck that’s supposed to mean, usually there are glimpses of tall blue-eyed blondes involved) more or less considered as swarthy and hairy spineless monkeys. There’s no such “tradition”. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/53 "2011-05-29T11:51:15Z")
Concur (UK here). Not even understanding what **Capitaine Zombie** is asserting here. Doesn’t ring any bells with me. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/54 "2011-05-29T18:02:44Z")
> [@toofs](#): > > Yeah, well, you know, that’s just like, uh, your opinion, man. I think we know where the Poles fit in. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/55 "2011-05-30T23:00:58Z")
> [@Apollon](#): > > A feeble attempt at trolling. These two things are not the same. Don’t pretend you don’t understand the difference. If it’s obvious perhaps you could tell the class what makes one culture better than another. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/56 "2011-05-30T23:45:56Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > However, in Germany, as far as elements of communal living – schools, roads, health care, jobs, respect for public good, etc. – is by far simply the best in Europe. And you can enjoy it fully as long as you are German by blood. > > Now, the reason I’m not there is that, unlike in Canada or US, even a lifetime is not sufficient to be regarded as “native” so it’s better for an immigrant to come to an immigrant country rather than spend whole life differentiating yourself from your Southern origins. > > So, yes, I can respect and admire Germans but really I could not live there and feel 2nd class citizen all my life. I think this is an important point, especially when questioning whether a comment that’s seemingly ehtnocentric can also be racist. The test is whether German-born children of immigrants are considered ‘true’ Germans, and whether their actions, good or bad, are interpreted as results of their native country or their parents’ native country. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/57 "2011-05-31T00:59:24Z")
> [@Apollon](#): > > A feeble attempt at trolling. These two things are not the same. Don’t pretend you don’t understand the difference. I look back on it now and see a possibility that when I said ‘color’ you thought I meant race. That is not what I meant. My point is the value of cultures is subjective just as the appreciation for all the colors in a spectrum. Blue isn’t inherently better than red, and saying Greece is unable to compete economically with Germany for cultural reasons is saying just that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/58 "2011-05-31T02:18:36Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > I think this is an important point, especially when questioning whether a comment that’s seemingly ehtnocentric can also be racist. The test is whether German-born children of immigrants are considered ‘true’ Germans, and whether their actions, good or bad, are interpreted as results of their native country or their parents’ native country. My daughter studied for a year in Germany, and is now back teaching English. She has never experienced any of this so-called racism. Now, she’s an American, but still. As for the OP, I suspect the Italians would not dispute being less organized than the Germans, but they might think this is a plus, not a minus. She lived in an international apartment building. People from almost all countries thought the German railway and subway system was amazingly efficient. Except the Japanese. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/59 "2011-05-31T07:31:09Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > 1:20 in this clip: [http://svtplay.se/v/2430328/rapport/tyskland\_\_oro\_for\_grekland?sb,k103266,6,f,155704](http://svtplay.se/v/2430328/rapport/tyskland__oro_for_grekland?sb,k103266,6,f,155704) It was a joke, son - implying that what I’d found was pages of porn where a stern blonde woman shouts orders at you and hits you with a buggy whip. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/60 "2011-05-31T07:51:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Here’s an old joke I once read in a collection by Isaac Asimov: > > A Berliner is walking around Vienna, gets lost, grabs a passing Viennese by the lapels and barks, “The-Post-Office-where-is-it?!” > > The Viennese gentleman steps back, straightens his coat, and says, “Sir, would it not be more polite to ask, ‘Pardon me, if you have a moment and happen to know, could you kindly direct me to the Post Office?’” > > The Berliner looks at him in astonishment, says, “I’d rather be lost!” and walks away. > > The following year the same Viennese gentleman is walking around Berlin, gets lost, and asks a passing Berliner, “Pardon me, sir, if you have a moment and happen to know, could you kindly direct me to the Post Office?” > > The Berliner barks, “About-face-walk-three-blocks-turn-left-walk-two-blocks-the-Post-Office-is-on-the-Achteck-Square!” > > The Viennese, more bewildered than enlightened, says, “Thank you–” > > The Berliner grabs him by the lapels and screams, "Never mind the thanks! _Repeat the instructions!"_ I don’t think I get it. Explain, please…? (Sorry for the hijack; I tried to PM BrainGlutton, but was told his saved PM box was full and would reject all further messages until he cleared some space.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545.md?page=4)