# German woman on tv: "Southern Europeans are not as disciplined as us" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2011, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545 "2011-05-28T08:21:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/61 "2011-05-31T07:53:35Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > (Sorry for the hijack; I tried to PM BrainGlutton, but was told his saved PM box was full and would reject all further messages until he cleared some space.) Is that some slang? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/62 "2011-05-31T19:46:52Z")
> [@AdmiralCrunch](#): > > Is it the woman in the sunglasses? Correct me if I’m wrong, but she doesn’t mention southern Europeans at all. Rough translation: We Northern Europeans have a completely different understanding of discipline, transformation?, and stateliness. I believe for such nations that it was sometimes too much, too fast. The Swedish subtitles say: > [@](#): > > Vi nordeuropeér har > ett helt annat begrepp om diciplin– > –och försaljning av statlig egendom– > –och vi förväntar oss ibland för mycket > för snabbt av såna länder. Google gives the following Swedish translation: > [@](#): > > We northern Europeans have [a] > very different concept of discipline - > > - and the sale of public property - > - and we expect too much sometimes > too fast by that kind of countries. It does not say who are “that kind of” or “such” countries, but she is clearly talking about someone other than herself. The non-Northern countries would imply she is talking about that Southern countries, would it not? But I agree that we do not have all the needed information. We really need an English translation of the entire story to decide what she said. But, out of context, I can understand why the OP thinks it racist. Replace “northern Europeans” with “Whites” and “that kind of countries” with “that kind of people”, and it could definitely be seen as someone who believes black people are inferior and that we shouldn’t expect too much money out of them. Heck, assume she’s talking about Mexicans, and it comes off as racist. Yes, I’m using “racist” in the loose sense that includes ethnicities as a race. The OP seems to be using that definition, too. And “ethnicist” doesn’t have the same ring to it. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/63 "2011-05-31T22:50:55Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I don’t think I get it. Explain, please…? The Berliner cares nothing for thanks - he is screaming at the Viennese to read back the instructions he has just been given to confirm that he has heard and understood them. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/64 "2011-06-01T02:20:38Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Who is better, and who is right? You may pick whomever you like, as long as you have an argument to back it up. Or even decide it’s not a consideration of value, as long as you back that up. We’ll have no truck with this sort of modern relativism here.\* \*Because it’s flat wrong, of course! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/65 "2011-06-02T20:36:12Z")
> [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](#): > > The closer you get to the equator, the less clothing people wear. I’m just sayin. Corollary: the closer you get to the equator, the stronger the nudity taboo and the higher the cultural level of prudishness. At least, that’s how it seems to me comparing the number of clothing optional beaches or other public facilities in California with, say, Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/66 "2011-06-03T02:49:32Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Corollary: the closer you get to the equator, the stronger the nudity taboo and the higher the cultural level of prudishness. At least, that’s how it seems to me comparing the number of clothing optional beaches or other public facilities in California with, say, Germany. I think we can blame Catholic missionaries and the Victorian British for the prudishness. Tahiti was like Woodstock before the white devil showed up. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/67 "2011-06-08T17:50:39Z")
Statements like “Germans are so efficient” or “Italians are so relaxed” are rarely interpreted as bigoted even though they only make sense if one has in mind some other, usually unstated group that is supposedly _not_ efficient or _not_ relaxed. You have to be careful with these kinds of statements. There is a complicated ordering of who can say these things about whom, conditioned strongly by context. One that you hear all the time is how Latino immigrants are so hardworking. The obvious question is, compared to whom? When it’s said by a white person, about Latinos, that leaves a pretty obvious third “inferior” group. ---
**Author:** ![Raskolnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@Raskolnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raskolnikov)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/68 "2011-06-10T00:49:34Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > And I am really astonished that you thought it was racist. You could have thought "gee whiz, I didn’t know that southerners are less disciplined ----I need to learn more about the cultural differences between Southern Europe and Germany. " > > Facts are facts—and there is nothing racist about pointing them out. > It’s a very, very sad aspect of our modern world that people are afraid to say out loud that some cultures are better than others. Bingo… what we have here is the typical anti-German attitude we get all the time. If Northern Italians say it about Southern Italians then why not Germans? they have every right to say something as it’s their money going to bail other countries out. LMAO at the insular, politically correct Americans on here. They obviously don’t follow news outside of America. > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Not true. This is all the fault of the euro. Germany has long been an export driven economy. But if they’re going to depend on exports, they need other nations willing to import their goods; in Germany’s case, that’s mainly the rest of Europe. So long as nations like Spain, Italy, and Greece are willing to run trade deficits to buy up Germany’s output, Germany is happy. > > But now, because of this debt crisis, countries like Greece are locked into the euro and can’t do the things that need to be done, like devalue. Their monetary policy is now dominated by German interests - Germany’s banks have high exposure in all these floundering countries in southern Europe and are facing huge haircuts. But the Germans feel that’s unacceptable, and their intransigence is eventually going to collapse the euro. Germany just came off a period of 7 years in a row of leading the world in exports (NOT china) and it wasn’t b/c they were just selling them to europe or relying on those countries to run up a deficit. Germany is by far the strongest economy in Europe and they’re sick of bailing out the less disciplined. It’s as simple as that. Of course, they aren’t the only ones but when a _ **German** _ woman says it!!! have you ever heard of the _Mittelstand?_ > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > If you’re really going for XIX th century racism, then you forgot where it leads to. Germany’s a good example of that. and so is Stalin who killed about as many as Hitler, during peace times and they were his own people too. funny how people have never been taught the real truth about so many things. 1939-1941 Germany and Soviet Union both occupied Poland as allies, when germany was increasing their boundaries the Soviets were doing the same thing in the Baltics, Ukraine, Belarus etc. yet the US had no problem with Stalin. you must’ve been sick the day they taught about Romanian history. How about 1941 in Odessa when the Romanians killed 20,000 Jews or December of 41 in the Bohdanivka district when Romanians shot more than 40,000 Jews in just a few days. Or the Tens of Thousands of Jews that perished in Transnistira at the hands of the Romanians. because, you know, the only country that harbored any anti-Semitic feelings was Germany. do yourself a favor, get the book : Bloodlands, Europe between Hitler and Stalin. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Yeah, that’s what I thought of. I think discipline is way more popular in Germany. People should stop taking quotes out of context before starting an OP. Look at the confusion in this thread. What did people think German discipline meant? funny how the vast majority of people don’t even own credit cards or have any debt, heck most don’t even get mortgages to buy a house. We’re talking about a country where the vast majority (-80%) don’t even have cable t.v. b/c they don’t want to spend the money on it. this “buy, buy, buy” obsession is almost uniquely American but that’s how you’ve been programmed by your corporate masters to think what is normal: the more insular Americans are the better for Corporate America. > [@RaleighRally](#): > > 1:20 in this clip: [http://svtplay.se/v/2430328/rapport/tyskland\_\_oro\_for\_grekland?sb,k103266,6,f,155704](http://svtplay.se/v/2430328/rapport/tyskland__oro_for_grekland?sb,k103266,6,f,155704) wow, what a regular goose-stepper! why was she out of uniform? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/69 "2011-06-10T01:53:03Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > In the news a couple of days ago, they interviewed a German woman about the crisis in Greece and how she felt about German taxpayers bailing out the failed Greek economy. One of the things she pointed out was “The southern Europeans are not as disciplined as us northern Europeans”. I was really astonished by this statement, believing it was undoubtedly a racist remark. But then I reassured myself that the channel I was watching is famous for its political correctness, and would never indulge in bigotry. > > Questions: > Do you consider it racist to say northern Europeans are more disciplined than southern Europeans? > If we look beyond the issue of racism, was the German woman factually correct in her statement? 1. No. 2. Probably. According to [Pokernews.com](http://Pokernews.com) _Southern Europeans tend to be far looser and less disciplined_. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/70 "2011-06-10T02:49:36Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > **German woman on tv: “Southern Europeans are not as disciplined as us”** Yeah, I caught that piece too, **Raleigh,** but you have to interpret the statement in context: She was addressing those worthless, spineless worms from Italy (three of them, IIRC; one was from Milan) who had come crawling on their bellies to her for the discipline they so sadly needed and deserved. There are some things you don’t seem to get about German TV. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/71 "2011-06-10T02:54:15Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > 1. Probably. According to [Pokernews.com](http://Pokernews.com) _Southern Europeans tend to be far looser and less disciplined_. :eek: Time to start filling CARE packages with [Kegel exercisers!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kegel_exercise#Pelvic_toning_devices) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/72 "2011-06-13T11:51:28Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I don’t think I get it. Explain, please…? Are you by any chance… _German_? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/73 "2011-06-13T12:30:13Z")
The Nazi psychologist, Jaensch, claimed that his experiments showed that “northern” chickens were more industrious and disciplined in their pecking than “southern”, “sun-adapted” chickens. (His works contain many mentions of the moral and intellectual inferiority of the “sun-adapted” races of humans, and the work with chickens is clearly intended to back this up.) It may not be racist to say that German (particularly Prussian) culture places a higher value on discipline and hard work than do many other cultures, but when people start linking this to northern versus southern peoples, as the woman quoted in the OP does, then yes, there is definitely some racism involved. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/74 "2011-06-13T13:36:47Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > Do you consider it racist to say northern Europeans are more disciplined than southern Europeans? > If we look beyond the issue of racism, was the German woman factually correct in her statement? It’s not racism. And as far as I know it is a trait southern Europeans take more pride in the northern Europeans. So maybe if it was racism, it’d be racism against northern Europeans. Yes it is true. > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Not true. This is all the fault of the euro. Germany has long been an export driven economy. But if they’re going to depend on exports, they need other nations willing to import their goods; in Germany’s case, that’s mainly the rest of Europe. So long as nations like Spain, Italy, and Greece are willing to run trade deficits to buy up Germany’s output, Germany is happy. > > But now, because of this debt crisis, countries like Greece are locked into the euro and can’t do the things that need to be done, like devalue. Germany is not an export driven economy. Net exports make up something like 3% of the overall economy. Are you blaming Germans for making quality goods other people are willing to buy? I’m sure the Germans would be happier if that exports were bought by people who could actually pay for the shit. Greece can do exactly the things that need to be done. It just takes more discipline. Lower wages (internal devaluation) Work more hours. Raise pension age. Put up an effective fight against corruption. Fire unproductive public workers. Privatize. Reduce public spending. Make tax department more effective. Quit pissing away their hours by demonstrating and start to do some actual work. Etc. The Euro has nothing to do with the problems in Southern Europe per se. It is how the chose to respond to having the Euro that made the difference. > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Their monetary policy is now dominated by German interests - Germany’s banks have high exposure in all these floundering countries in southern Europe and are facing huge haircuts. But the Germans feel that’s unacceptable, and their intransigence is eventually going to collapse the euro. Since it’s obvious for anyone with two cents of sense, that Greece will never be able to repay the loans, they should default today rather than tomorrow. And the idiotic incompetently run banks, many of them German, that have thrown money at dubious investment objects without proper risk analysis should bear their own losses instead of trying to pass them on to various taxpayers. If the banks go bankrupt too as a consequence, so much the better. Other, more competently run banks, will grow and flourish in the ground cleared of weeds. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/75 "2011-06-13T13:59:01Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > The Nazi psychologist, Jaensch, claimed that his experiments showed that “northern” chickens were more industrious and disciplined in their pecking than “southern”, “sun-adapted” chickens. (His works contain many mentions of the moral and intellectual inferiority of the “sun-adapted” races of humans, and the work with chickens is clearly intended to back this up.) 😕 “Because there was a better work ethic on the other side”?! I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/76 "2011-06-13T15:52:48Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Germany is not an export driven economy. They’re the 2nd largest exporter in the world. What the hell are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/77 "2011-06-13T16:12:54Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > They’re the 2nd largest exporter in the world. What the hell are you talking about? As I explained in the post. Since net exports only make up some 3% of the overall (public) economy, then it is not accurate to describe it as the most important element of the economy. I.e. if Germany had to scale back exports to that of imports tomorrow it’d experience a decline of 3% GDP – or about one year’s worth of normal growth. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/78 "2011-06-13T16:23:54Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > As I explained in the post. Since net exports only make up some 3% of the overall (public) economy, then it is not accurate to describe it as the most important element of the economy. I.e. if Germany had to scale back exports to that of imports tomorrow it’d experience a decline of 3% GDP – or about one year’s worth of normal growth. So what **is** the most important element of Germany’s economy? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/79 "2011-06-13T16:38:00Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > As I explained in the post. Since net exports only make up some 3% of the overall (public) economy, then it is not accurate to describe it as the most important element of the economy. I.e. if Germany had to scale back exports to that of imports tomorrow it’d experience a decline of 3% GDP – or about one year’s worth of normal growth. 1/3 of their output is exports. Their entire economy is predicated on running a trade surplus. They ran a $187 billion trade surplus last year ([see the “international trade and balance of payments” section](http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?datasetcode=SNA_TABLE1)). France, Italy, and Spain are all prime markets for German exports within the eurozone, and all ran a trade deficit. 3% is an immense number when you’re dealing with trillions of dollars of output. US GDP dropped 2.6% in 2009. Did that feel unimportant? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545/80 "2011-06-13T16:39:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So what **is** the most important element of Germany’s economy? Jackboots. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/german-woman-on-tv-southern-europeans-are-not-as-disciplined-as-us/583545.md?page=5)