# Germans lecturing on morals!! **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 9, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627 "2015-07-09T01:03:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/21 "2015-07-09T18:28:25Z")
Just for how long do you suggest the children pay for the sins of their parents ? ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/22 "2015-07-09T18:31:56Z")
Congratulations on the most clichéd reaction possible to a news story involving Germany: “The Germans are a bunch of Nazis!” I look forward to equally insightful posts such as “Have the French surrendered yet?” and “Have the Poles figured out how to change the light bulbs?” ---
**Author:** ![stillownedbysetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@stillownedbysetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stillownedbysetters)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/23 "2015-07-09T18:47:15Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Congratulations on the most clichéd reaction possible to a news story involving Germany: “The Germans are a bunch of Nazis!” I look forward to equally insightful posts such as “Have the French surrendered yet?” and “Have the Poles figured out how to change the light bulbs?” I couldn’t have said it better myself (and I was trying). Thank you, Freddy. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/24 "2015-07-09T18:57:02Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Congratulations on the most clichéd reaction possible to a news story involving Germany: “The Germans are a bunch of Nazis!” I look forward to equally insightful posts such as “Have the French surrendered yet?” and “Have the Poles figured out how to change the light bulbs?” And yet here’s a New York Times column making the OP’s point without using the N-word. [NY Times column.](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/business/economy/germanys-debt-history-echoed-in-greece.html?_r=0) Or to use an analogy from way back before there were Nazis, we have the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant from Matthew 18:23–34 [QUOTE=Matthew the Evangelist] 23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. 26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. 28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. 29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’ 30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened. 32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. [/QUOTE] Except for the gap in time in the real-life case vs. the immediate hypocrisy in the parable, the similarity is palpable. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/25 "2015-07-09T20:55:35Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Let me make it clear. I suggested that Germany did not lead to Mao, but I stick to the claim that it led to Stalin. > > It is the unmitigated gall of this guy lecturing the Greeks on economic morality. Does he not know that the failed attempt by Germany to pay the WWI reparations led to economic collapse and eventually to WWII. And what Germany got after WWII was the ability to rebuild their economy, which they are unwilling to give to Greece. Einstein once said that doing the same thing again and expecting a different result is a form of insanity. This is insane behavior. You’re American, yeah? Where do you get off lecturing other countries about morality after what we did to the Indians? ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/26 "2015-07-09T21:11:40Z")
Fuck yeah! Wait a minute… ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/27 "2015-07-09T21:28:56Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You’re American, yeah? > > Where do you get off lecturing other countries about morality after what we did to the Indians? Leave it to a Homo sapien to get all high and mighty. But what about how you treated the Neanderthals? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/28 "2015-07-09T21:52:56Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Leave it to a Homo sapien to get all high and mighty. But what about how you treated the Neanderthals? Huh? Turns out we _loved_ them to death! ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/29 "2015-07-09T22:04:34Z")
One might argue that Germany has the moral high ground…having already offered billions of Euro to bail out miscreant Greece the _first_ time. But, we can always harangue historical misdeeds to distract from present circumstance… ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/30 "2015-07-09T22:19:47Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Leave it to a Homo sapien to get all high and mighty. But what about how you treated the Neanderthals? Huh? Look, they were tasty and we were hungry. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/31 "2015-07-09T22:24:00Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Look, they were tasty and we were hungry. I can’t tell you how many conversations I’ve had with police that started with that line. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/32 "2015-07-10T00:26:15Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Germany, the country that ruined the 20th century This might be a bit over the top. However, the following line from Herr Bittner is slightly redolent of irony, for those with historical perspective: > [@Jochen Bittner](#): > > Europe is a contract-based community of states that permanently agree on mutually beneficial rules :dubious: > [@John Bredin](#): > > And yet here’s a New York Times column making the OP’s point without using the N-word. The OP didn’t use the N-word either. Both do make a worthwhile point. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/33 "2015-07-10T03:15:35Z")
I think WWII is completely irrelevant to Germany vs. Greece on debt. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/34 "2015-07-10T05:52:23Z")
If it makes the OP feel any better, German journalist and publisher [Jakob Augstein](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_Augstein) likewise criticized his own country for not making war reparations, in a[column](http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/griechenland-deutschland-selbstverliebt-und-selbstgerecht-kolumne-a-1042772.html#ref=meinunghp) that appeared today on the website of _Der Spiegel_ To be fair about it, it’s not accurate to say that Germany made no reparations at all following WWII. The USSR’s demand for more in reparations was a major contributing factor in the division of Germany, though of course not the only one by any means. In general, the Soviets took as much in machinery and other industrial equipment as they could from their occupation zone. Both the Soviets and the western Allies [took a great deal of intellectual property](http://www.scientistsandfriends.com/files/secrets.doc) from Germany; one might say even including the intellectuals themselves in some cases, like Wernher von Braun who was vitally important to the success of our postwar rocket and space programs. On the other hand, like much of western Europe, West Germany did benefit from the [Marshall Plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan), which was politically feasible presumably because a prosperous and stable Germany, or half-a-Germany, was held to be better for everyone in the long run. In the U.S. most of us are quite proud of the Apollo moon landings and many people are convinced we own that accomplishment altogether. But we obviously had a great deal of assistance from Germans on that one, or at least from a few key people who had recently immigrated from Germany. Furthermore, perhaps we should consider to the cost of Allied bombing raids on civilian targets. I realize that these raids were tactically justifiable, but to what extent should that apply to the homes, businesses, and neighborhoods of ordinary citizens? How would you come up with a fair monetary value on which reparations should be based? Of course Germany bombed Allied targets as well, including significant damage and casualties in a number of cities, but I don’t think the extent of those attacks were anything like what we did to their cities later in the war. (I’m open to correction here, but I think I’m right about this.) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/35 "2015-07-10T05:58:27Z")
Germany changed. Better for Germany to change and not pay full reparations than to pay full reparations and start another world war. Greece does not want to change. They want to be bailed out now, and then bailed out next time they get in trouble. Not only did Germany change its government, but no nation has internalized the lessons of the Great Depression better than Germany. They are one of the most fiscally responsible nations as well as extremely careful to avoid inflation. If not for Germany’s willingness to make short term sacrifices for long term prosperity, they wouldn’t have been able to loan Greece money in the first place. A world where everyone acts like Greece is a world in which we’re all poor. Greece needs to become more like Germany. Or Canada, if you prefer, another exceptionally responsible nation. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/36 "2015-07-10T06:10:25Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > For Germany, the country that ruined the 20th century (don’t forget that WWI led directly to Stalin, if not Mao) to lecture others on morality is unmitigated **Chutzpah**. Germany would respond to this jibe, but first must find someone within its borders to explain what this strange term means . . . ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/37 "2015-07-10T14:36:44Z")
Why is Germany being made the scapegoat for Greek incompetence? French taxpayers do not want to supplement the Greek government’s financial incompetence, either. No EU country is in favor of pissing away more money if Greece isn’t willing to make changes. A bad deal is still a bad deal. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/38 "2015-07-10T15:24:38Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Furthermore, perhaps we should consider to the cost of Allied bombing raids on civilian targets. I realize that these raids were tactically justifiable, but to what extent should that apply to the homes, businesses, and neighborhoods of ordinary citizens? How would you come up with a fair monetary value on which reparations should be based? Of course Germany bombed Allied targets as well, including significant damage and casualties in a number of cities, but I don’t think the extent of those attacks were anything like what we did to their cities later in the war. (I’m open to correction here, but I think I’m right about this.) German historian Jorg Friedrich wrote this book [The Fire | Columbia University Press](http://cup.columbia.edu/book/the-fire/9780231133807) in which he examines the bombing campaign. It was a science. The purpose was to cause maximum damage in all areas. The mixture of bombs (explosive, fire) was tested extinsively. (Explosive first to open holes in multistory brick buildings to allow air flow so incendiary bombs would have enough oxygen to maximize burn.) The reason that the Germans werent accused for the firebombings of Rotterdam or London is because we did it too. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/40 "2015-07-10T21:17:23Z")
> [@cultsmasher](#): > > Also, the Germans make reparations to the Jews for the whole holocaust thing. Which believe it or not was largely a hoax. Well, I guess we know what the rest of this thread’s going to be about. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627/41 "2015-07-10T21:23:15Z")
> [@cultsmasher](#): > > Also, the Germans make reparations to the Jews for the whole holocaust thing. Which believe it or not was largely a hoax. I’m going to have to go with “not.” And **Hari Seldon** , you owe **cultsmasher** a big thank you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germans-lecturing-on-morals/724627.md?page=3)