# Germanwings flight crash - deliberate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 26, 2015, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993 "2015-03-26T00:30:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/101 "2015-03-26T19:37:38Z")
Dumb question; as this is a low-cost carrier owned by Lufthansa, why is the name Germanwings and not, say, Deutsch Flügeln (which is how Google translates the name into German)? In short, why did they give it an English name? ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/102 "2015-03-26T19:42:26Z")
> [@dzeiger](#): > > So is there any good reason to do this outside of an emergency situation? > > If not, would it be a good (or reasonable) idea to link that override signal to some sort of automated signalling system? May not have helped in this case, but it seems like “Hey, someone in the cockpit initiated an emergency override lockdown” would be a generally useful thing for Air Traffic Control to know about. There are no systems in place for that. It has the potential to generate a huge number of false alarms and become a dangerous distraction. What would be the gain? The authority to declare an emergency rests on the flight crew. If ATC notices something amiss they will check, as they did in this case. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/103 "2015-03-26T19:45:48Z")
In the US anyway, ATC can declare an emergency on behalf of the crew. Not that it would have made any difference here. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/104 "2015-03-26T19:46:24Z")
Look, it’s silly to devise elaborate schemes for something that has something like 1-in-100,000,000 chance of happening (there are around 100K flights a day. Do the math). ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/105 "2015-03-26T19:46:27Z")
The more I think about this, the more I think there was a rush to judgment. Seems to me they should wait for the data recorder to come back and confirm some of their assumptions. The fact that they heard the guy breathing normally doesn’t prove that he was indeed conscious and in control. I think they need to positively rule out a medical crisis before they blame the co-pilot. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/106 "2015-03-26T19:48:30Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The more I think about this, the more I think there was a rush to judgment. Seems to me they should wait for the data recorder to come back and confirm some of their assumptions. The fact that they heard the guy breathing normally doesn’t prove that he was indeed conscious and in control. I think they need to positively rule out a medical crisis before they blame the co-pilot. It’s a pretty peculiar medical crisis that makes someone lock the cockpit door, set the airplane on a descent that is steep but not steep enough to violate the allowed flight envelope, and then (I presume) conk out? ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/107 "2015-03-26T19:52:05Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > In the US anyway, ATC can declare an emergency on behalf of the crew. Not that it would have made any difference here. Right. I misspoke there, didn’t correct on time, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/108 "2015-03-26T19:53:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > In the US anyway, ATC can declare an emergency on behalf of the crew. That happened in this case too. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/109 "2015-03-26T20:08:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s a pretty peculiar medical crisis that makes someone lock the cockpit door, set the airplane on a descent that is steep but not steep enough to violate the allowed flight envelope, and then (I presume) conk out? No, a ruptured AVM, could do it quite nicely, it’s just not a common event. We’ll never know from the remains, though. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/110 "2015-03-26T20:47:58Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If someone wanted to disguise a suicide crash as an accident, might he “talk for the black boxes” - say words simulating an onboard emergency? Make a fake Mayday call (“Mayday, Mayday, decompression”), make fake shouts of distress or alarm? The FDR will contradict all that. Also, if it was an emergency you’d expect some audible alarms on the CVR as well. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Maybe not in this case. The impact was so severe that it separated the contents of the FDR from the casing. The casing has been found but not the recorder. The CVR is barely recognizable in the photos. It doesn’t matter. The casing is irrelevant. The only truly important part is the data collection thingy, everything else can be burned, crushed, and destroyed but as long as that bit - which is the most well armored bit in the whole thing - survives you can get data. Having the data separate from the casing makes it harder to find, but should they find it the data should be intact and extractable. > [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > That assumes that all these people could stay on their feet while the person at the controls banks and dives and that once they got into the cockpit, they would know how to fly the plane and have enough time to pull it out of a dive before it hit something. It might not hit the ground, but what about that mountain up ahead? Er… the “mountian up ahead” sort of is “the ground”, isn’t it? > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > The only unusual thing I see in the news about the co-pilot is that he interrupted his pilot training for several months. Doesn’t say why. There are a bunch of reasons that could happen - lack of money, family crisis, all sorts of things. > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Two questions, though: are cockpit mikes sensitive enough to pick up “normal” breathing? Even from a headset? Yep. It may require some soundfile manipulation and analysis but they can often pick that out of the CVR. > [@](#): > > And wouldn’t “normal, steady breathing” be a little odd for a pilot of a craft rapidly losing altitude and wondering what a mountain goat was doing way up in the clouds? Yep, that would probably result in a gasp. But a guy willing/determined to kill himself might maintain normal breathing the whole way down. > [@Locrian](#): > > This is so disturbing. If this truly is a pilot suicide, why couldn’t he just steal a plane, fly it out and only kill himself instead of including 150 other people? Um… because irrational people aren’t rational? ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/111 "2015-03-26T20:51:12Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Why couldn’t it have just been a heart attack or stroke? Because it was “controlled flight”. Leaning on a stick would cause changes in airspeed inconsistent with “controlled flight”. Reports are that it looks like the autopilot was adjusted. We’ll have to wait for the FDR data to confirm that specifically, but any unconscious act is pretty much ruled out already. > [@Diceman](#): > > The news report this morning said that the copilot was extremely new, with only about 660 hours of flight time. I heard on BBC Newshour this morning that he was trained 6 years ago. I’d expect more flight hours. > **[Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32063587)** > > The co-pilot of the Germanwings flight, named as Andreas Lubitz, intentionally started the plane's descent before it crashed into the French Alps, officials say. > [@outlierrn](#): > > No, a ruptured AVM, could do it quite nicely, it’s just not a common event. We’ll never know from the remains, though. That could cause someone to adjust the autopilot? Or manually fly controlled but descending? I suppose a stroke could cause irrational but controlled behavior; does that happen? If the FDR yields data, we will know whether flight was autopilot or manual, and what happened on the controls. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/112 "2015-03-26T22:37:43Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Well, suicides are usually impulse decisions, not something that is meticulously planned out. I can understand feeling overwhelmed by life or whatever other problems he might have had, but I can’t fathom a mindset that would lead to you deciding to kill yourself, and take 150 innocent people with you. The copilot was either a collossal asshole, or has was idealogically motivated (ie, lone-wolf terrorist). I’m not sure why this is hard to comprehend. I have never been suicidal therefore I have no idea what kind of mindset you have to be in for suicide to seem like the best option available. You cannot rationalise any actions of a suicidal person because it is not a rational act. You cannot say he took 150 people with him therefore he is an arsehole or it is ideological. All you can say is he was mentally in a place that you have no experience with therefore your conclusions (that are based on your own experiences) are invalid. That said, it could be everything, he could be an ideologically motivated suicidal arsehole. > [@Locrian](#): > > This is so disturbing. If this truly is a pilot suicide, why couldn’t he just steal a plane, fly it out and only kill himself instead of including 150 other people? Stealing a plane would be pretty difficult anyway. Depending on the airport setup it might be impossible. > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m sure I read “hard” somewhere; it may not have been reliable. > > Two questions, though: are cockpit mikes sensitive enough to pick up “normal” breathing? Even from a headset? And wouldn’t “normal, steady breathing” be a little odd for a pilot of a craft rapidly losing altitude and wondering what a mountain goat was doing way up in the clouds? > > Doesn’t add up. Yes breathing is easily picked up. One of the more annoying things that certain pilots do is forget to turn their mic off when they are not speaking. You are left with the sound of them breathing, munching on something, sighing etc. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/113 "2015-03-27T00:11:13Z")
A group of German pilots are [doubting](http://time.com/3760283/germanwings-german-pilots-association/) the suicide story. Suicide/mass-murder seems most likely based on what we know right now, but it might be too soon to be certain. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/114 "2015-03-27T00:17:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > A group of German pilots are [doubting](http://time.com/3760283/germanwings-german-pilots-association/) the suicide story. “German Pilots Association”. Doubting is part of the job description. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/115 "2015-03-27T00:39:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > A group of German pilots are [doubting](http://time.com/3760283/germanwings-german-pilots-association/) the suicide story. > > Suicide/mass-murder seems most likely based on what we know right now, but it might be too soon to be certain. the only rational explanation was a stroke or heart attack but that I believe has been discounted. He deliberately set the plane to descend to 100 feet. Under no circumstances would that be done in the mountains. It’s a guaranteed destruction of the plane. He then went on to disable the electronic door lock with a 5 minute override. The whole thing was timed to destroy the plane. The co-pilot took a year off from training for psychological reasons. He then went on to complete his training. I really don’t see any other possibility at this point. It was a deliberate act done with forethought. The reason appears to be psychological. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/116 "2015-03-27T00:43:12Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > “German Pilots Association”. Doubting is part of the job description. How so? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/117 "2015-03-27T00:46:46Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > “German Pilots Association”. Doubting is part of the job description. How so? > [@From the link](#): > > The International Federal of Airline Pilots Associations, or IFALPA, condemned the leaks of the cockpit voice recorder or CVR on Thurdsay, saying that it violated long-established practices after plane crashes, where details are kept confidential until the investigation is complete. “Leaks of this nature greatly harm flight safety since they invite ill-informed speculation from the media and general public and discourage cooperation with investigators in future accidents,” said a statement from the Montreal-based organization. “The sole purpose of a CVR is to aid investigators… not to apportion blame.” Amen, Brother. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/118 "2015-03-27T00:48:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the only rational explanation was a stroke or heart attack but that I believe has been discounted. He deliberately set the plane to descend to **100 feet.** Under no circumstances would that be done in the mountains. Do they know that? I thought they only have the CVR in which case they wouldn’t know what altitude was set. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/119 "2015-03-27T00:53:12Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > Do they know that? I thought they only have the CVR in which case they wouldn’t know what altitude was set. I also wondered how they would know that the co-pilot set the altitude to descend to 100 feet. I finally read that apparently this setting is part of the data transmitted by the transponder. News to me. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/120 "2015-03-27T00:58:11Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > Do they know that? I thought they only have the CVR in which case they wouldn’t know what altitude was set. Satellite link. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993.md?page=7)