# Germanwings flight crash - deliberate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 26, 2015, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993 "2015-03-26T00:30:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/141 "2015-03-27T02:42:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > ads b [satellite](http://www.globalstar.com/en/index.php?cid=6300&pk_campaign=ADSB&pk_kwd=website&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=vanity&utm_campaign=adsb) [link](http://www.icao.int/SAM/Documents/2014-SAMIG13/02%20NavCanada%20ADSB%20S.pdf). Showing me a design concept and non certified prototype is supposed to prove, what exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/142 "2015-03-27T02:43:07Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > I was not talking about the the flight controls. I was talking about the procedure to unlock the cockpit door. If you saw the video, there is a PIN pad outside the cockpit and there is an emergency code to gain access to the cockpit. What if the crew members that were locked out of the cockpit couldn’t get back in because the PIN pad was defective, the lock was defective, or they didn’t know the emergency code? > > I made no comment regarding how the autopilot was set to descend to 100 feet. you didn’t have to mention the autopilot. I mentioned it because it’s part of the evidence that renders the condition of the lock moot. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/143 "2015-03-27T02:56:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > you didn’t have to mention the autopilot. I mentioned it because it’s part of the evidence that renders the condition of the lock moot. Really? What if the co-pilot set the autopilot to 100 ft, then just leaned back in his chair and closed his eyes? If the pilot could have gotten back in quickly, maybe he could have done something. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/144 "2015-03-27T03:01:01Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > Showing me a design concept and non certified prototype is supposed to prove, what exactly? flightradar24 is claiming that their analysis of satellite data showed the copilot inputted the commands. This is their claim. I didn’t make the initial claim it was ADS-B. I quoted what flightradar24 said. YOU said they use ADS-B for the information. If it’s not a function of the new systems in development then either flightradar24 had access to ACARS information on the flight or they’re outright lying. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/145 "2015-03-27T03:04:53Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > Really? What if the co-pilot set the autopilot to 100 ft, then just leaned back in his chair and closed his eyes? If the pilot could have gotten back in quickly, maybe he could have done something. If by “closed his eyes” you mean he fell asleep then he would have heard the Captain frantically pounding on the door screaming at him. They could hear the passenger screams on the recording. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/146 "2015-03-27T03:08:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > flightradar24 is claiming that their analysis of satellite data showed the copilot inputted the commands. This is their claim. I didn’t make the initial claim it was ADS-B. I quoted what flightradar24 said. YOU said they use ADS-B for the information. If it’s not a function of the new systems in development then either flightradar24 had access to ACARS information on the flight or they’re outright lying. Or maybe they use ADS-B (transponder) data. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/147 "2015-03-27T03:10:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If by “closed his eyes” you mean he fell asleep then he would have heard the Captain frantically pounding on the door screaming at him. They could hear the passenger screams on the recording. Fell asleep or just decided to say his final prayers. Let me spell it out: 1. He sets autopilot to 100 feet. 2. He removes his hands from the controls. 3. He ignores pounding and screams. 4. He just rides out the remainder of his life, while taking no active steps to prevent anyone from entering the cockpit. 5. He does not help anyone enter, he does not hinder anyone from entering. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/148 "2015-03-27T03:20:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > flightradar24 is claiming that their analysis of satellite data showed the copilot inputted the commands. This is their claim. I didn’t make the initial claim it was ADS-B. I quoted what flightradar24 said. YOU said they use ADS-B for the information. If it’s not a function of the new systems in development then either flightradar24 had access to ACARS information on the flight or they’re outright lying. Flight Radar 24 uses ADS-B > **[Live Flight Tracker - Real-Time Flight Tracker Map | Flightradar24](https://www.flightradar24.com/about)** > > The world’s most popular flight tracker. Track planes in real-time on our flight tracker map and get up-to-date flight status & airport information. > [@](#): > > The technology we use to receive flight information from aircraft is called ADS-B. Roughly 60% of all passenger aircraft around the world are equipped with an ADS-B transponder. However, this percentage will continue to grow. Read more about the technology behind Flightradar24. Edit: ADS-B is currently a ground based system. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/149 "2015-03-27T03:27:55Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > Or maybe they use ADS-B (transponder) data. They said it was based on the analysis of satellite data. They said the plane was programmed to descend to 100 feet and that 9 seconds after this was done the plane showed it was descending. I posted this earlier. So either they’re pulling numbers out of their ass and they’re lying or they were privy to the data. I don’t have a horse in this race I’m must posting based on their claim. Clearly the plane descended in a controlled manner, the door could not be unlocked and the copilot was alive. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/150 "2015-03-27T03:30:44Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > Fell asleep or just decided to say his final prayers. Let me spell it out: > > 1. He sets autopilot to 100 feet. > 2. He removes his hands from the controls. > 3. He ignores pounding and screams. > 4. He just rides out the remainder of his life, while taking no active steps to prevent anyone from entering the cockpit. > 5. He does not help anyone enter, he does not hinder anyone from entering. sooooooooooo… he deliberately crashed the plane. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/151 "2015-03-27T03:32:35Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > Flight Radar 24 uses ADS-B > > [About us - Flightradar24](http://www.flightradar24.com/about) > > Edit: ADS-B is currently a ground based system. Great, what part of this are you having problems with: Online web tracking service FlightRadar24 said its analysis of satellite tracking data had found that someone had changed the altitude to the minimum setting possible of 100 feet: well below the crash site lying at about 6,000 feet. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/152 "2015-03-27T03:34:46Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > Fell asleep or just decided to say his final prayers. Let me spell it out: > > 1. He sets autopilot to 100 feet. > 2. He removes his hands from the controls. > 3. He ignores pounding and screams. > 4. He just rides out the remainder of his life, while taking no active steps to prevent anyone from entering the cockpit. > 5. He does not help anyone enter, he does not hinder anyone from entering. #4 and #5 are not possible. If he didn’t actively hinder entry the pilot could have entered via the keypad code. Even if the captain forgot the code the flight attendants know it as well. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/153 "2015-03-27T03:37:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They said it was based on the analysis of satellite data. They said the plane was programmed to descend to 100 feet and that 9 seconds after this was done the plane showed it was descending. I posted this earlier. > > So either they’re pulling numbers out of their ass and they’re lying or they were privy to the data. I don’t have a horse in this race I’m must posting based on their claim. Clearly the plane descended in a controlled manner, the door could not be unlocked and the copilot was alive. No, FR24 didn’t say that. Whoever wrote the news article made an error claiming FR24 uses “satellite data”. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/154 "2015-03-27T03:45:43Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > No, FR24 didn’t say that. Whoever wrote the news article made an error claiming FR24 uses “satellite data”. The quote involved pilot settings. Not the movement of the plane, pilot settings. Is this a function of ADS-B? ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/155 "2015-03-27T03:50:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The quote involved pilot settings. Not the movement of the plane, pilot settings. > > Is this a function of ADS-B? > **[We have analysed the raw data from the transponder of #4U9525 and found some...](https://forum.flightradar24.com/forum/aviation-forums/general-aviation/8833-we-have-analysed-the-raw-data-from-the-transponder-of-4u9525-and-found-some-more-dat?8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-dat=)** > > We have analysed the raw data from the transponder of #4U9525 and found some more data apart from the regular position/altitude data. > These are the decoded ModeS (Downlink Format 20) frames which contain replies to interrogating radar requests... ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/156 "2015-03-27T04:00:24Z")
> [@rsa](#): > > #4 and #5 are not possible. If he didn’t actively hinder entry the pilot could have entered via the keypad code. Even if the captain forgot the code the flight attendants know it as well. Not if the lock or PIN pad were defective. Perhaps the whole crew was told the wrong PIN? ---
**Author:** ![newme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e0b2c6/32.png) [@newme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newme)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/157 "2015-03-27T04:11:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Great, what part of this are you having problems with: > > Online web tracking service FlightRadar24 said its analysis of satellite tracking data had found that someone had changed the altitude to the minimum setting possible of 100 feet: well below the crash site lying at about 6,000 feet. That is a _reporter_ calling it “satellite” data, a simple error on the reporter’s part. If you would spend a minute on [FlightRadar24.com](http://FlightRadar24.com), you will see that they receive data sent from the plane to ADS-B receivers on the ground. Part of the data received is the GPS aka “satellite” position of the aircraft, which is probably where the reporter picked up the “satellite” part. The autopilot data, however, goes straight from the plane to ground, no satellites involved. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/158 "2015-03-27T04:20:38Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > [We have analysed the raw data from the transponder of #4U9525 and found some more dat - Flightradar24 Forum](http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-dat) According to the cite it’s possible to ping the plane and ask for certain types of information. I’ve never heard of this before so I apologize to you and Richard Pearse for that exchange. I’ve been looking at a hard mounted ADS-B system for a simply airplane and had no idea they were capable of such data exchanges. The “satellite” quote was universally picked up and is still being repeated. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/159 "2015-03-27T07:51:31Z")
Either the flight deck is secured or it isn’t. There is no “super secret” key scheme that will remain secret for more than a few months. Having a non-pilot in the area prevents no action by the person with the stick in his hands - the Egypt Air case had the pilot returning to the deck and seeing the problem - and not being able to pull it out. And the next person who wants to do the John Wayne thing and have a firearm on the deck shall be shot. Hey - I was being nice and giving the crew a real potty - we could make it a relief tube (w/female adapter as needed) and a couple of paint cans. By the time a person is on the flight deck, they are old enough to not worry about body functions. And how did this twit with 660 hours get in that seat? Or was that number mis-quoted? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993/160 "2015-03-27T08:07:09Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > And how did this twit with 660 hours get in that seat? Or was that number mis-quoted? You can’t get to 1,000, 5,000 or 10,000 hours without first at one point being at 660. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-flight-crash-deliberate/715993.md?page=9)