Germanwings plane crash in France: Can a pilot be locked out of the cockpit?

[DrDeth]

@Alley_Dweller

What’s wrong with requiring another crew member (flight attendant) to enter the cockpit before the pilot leaves? Every US flight I’ve been on since 9/11/2001 does this, although I freely admit I have not been on every airline.

Yes, that’s exactly what US aircrews do and it would have possibly prevented this.

[Bone]

This article states that there are ways to re-enter a secure cockpit that are not disclosed due to security reasons for planes in the US.

In 2002, the Federal Aviation Administration issued new rules regarding cockpit doors, requiring them to be strengthened so they could not be opened by physical force and could block shrapnel fire from small arms or explosives. FAA rules required doors to be locked at all times, but experts say those requirements do not block authorized crew members from entering the cockpit in the event of an emergency.

On today’s planes, most doors require a security code to be unlocked, Winn said. The codes are closely held and only a limited number of individuals aboard the plane know the combination.

Robert Benzon, who spent 27 years as a National Transportation Safety Board lead crash investigator, said the rest of the flight crew – flight attendants and a pilot who might be locked out – generally have the means to get back into the cockpit.

[md2000]

If you’d been watching CNN during every waking hour like you are expected to do (by CNN) you’d have heard over and over that the US rule is nobody gets to be alone in the cockpit. However, different countries, different rules. I assume Germany’s is about to change.

Plus:
It was a 20-year-old plane for a budget airline. I’m guessing Wifi was not installed.
It was over the Alps, so no cell service from what I heard. However, if I were the crash investigator, I would look for and try to analyze any smartphone memory content that survived the crash. I’m sure there are several videos.
The odd thing was the controlled descent. You’d think a suicide would do what the EgyptAir guy did, put it into a nosedive. After all, once he committed, he’d be in seriously deep shit even if he changed his mind. Why give yourself time to contemplate it and back out?

(Recall the case of the airliner in Russia - the pilot let his teenage son come up and sit in the pilot seat. Someone turned off the autopilot, and the plane immediately switched to direct nose down, and of course the only person in the pilot seat was unable to recover. Splat!)

The Air France crash was a group effort. the fatal (quasi-automated) flaw in the Airbus is no feedback. If you push the stick (side-arm joystick) forward, it stays there. No springback. The one pilot was pushing full forward, the other full back, and the plane compromised on the intermediate setting, which continued to cause the plane to stall. They should have both pushed forward, but the one pilot could not tell the other was doing exactly the wrong thing. In an older setup, they would feel themselves fighting each other.

I also remember an anecdote about Chinese airlines before China fully opened up to the west. They used to get occasional hijackers demanding to be taken to South Korea, so their cockpit doors were armoured. On one occasion, the pilot stepped out, and the co-pilot at one point went out to talk to him and the door clicked lock shut behind them. The passengers were treated to the sight of the pilots hacking the door down with the fire axe while the plane continued on autopilot. Fortunately, they got in.

[Richard_Pearse]

@Bone

This article states that there are ways to re-enter a secure cockpit that are not disclosed due to security reasons for planes in the US.

Unless there is something additional that has not been disclosed, the door system is freely available on the Internet. Essentially all the code does is send a request to the flightdeck for the door to be opened, the pilots can deny the request which locks the door for a certain preset time or they can can unlock the door. If they do nothing (incapacitation) then the door will open automatically after a certain time. There is no particular advantage for a terrorist to know this information or to even know the code as it doesn’t allow them access to the flightdeck. Basically two scenarios are covered by the door, restricting unlawful entry while also allowing entry in the case of pilot incapacitation. What isn’t covered is the rogue pilot situation.

[johnpost]

a number of Euro and Canadian airlines have now made a two person in the cockpit rule.

[jezzaOZ]

@Richard_Pearse

Basically two scenarios are covered by the door, restricting unlawful entry while also allowing entry in the case of pilot incapacitation. What isn’t covered is the rogue pilot situation.

The solution to the rogue pilot is very straightforward.

Simply have two LOCK/NORM/OPEN spring loaded rotary switches on different sides of the cockpit much like two key missile launch systems.

Wire them so that both have to be in LOCK position to activate the lock function. The UNLOCK positions can be wired so either side can unlock and the default centre position is NORM

[Richard_Pearse]

@jezzaOZ

The solution to the rogue pilot is very straightforward.

Simply have two LOCK/NORM/OPEN spring loaded rotary switches on different sides of the cockpit much like two key missile launch systems.

Wire them so that both have to be in LOCK position to activate the lock function. The UNLOCK positions can be wired so either side can unlock and the default centre position is NORM

That would expose the flightdeck for the period one pilot is out of the flightdeck wouldn’t it? As the remaining pilot would not be able to lockout an intruder who has access to the keypad code.

[Johnny_L.A]

@Whack-a-Mole

Another claim I saw was regulations say there must always be two people in the cockpit. If a pilot leaves one of the cabin crew has to go sit in the cockpit.

I’ve seen this claim, too. I skimmed Part 121 and didn’t see it.

Does this rule exist? If so, can someone cite ‘chapter and verse’?

[jezzaOZ]

@Richard_Pearse

That would expose the flightdeck for the period one pilot is out of the flightdeck wouldn’t it? As the remaining pilot would not be able to lockout an intruder who has access to the keypad code.

They can always put a flight attendant in.

At least that way it would require a cooperative FA to perform the lock rather than the alternative where the rogue pilot (or rogue FA) could do it without the second party - including having disabled them.

There will never be a perfect system but this would have prevented this event and probably several other pilot suicide events over the past few years

[zombywoof]

The actual pilot here already said in post #30:

I will comment that any airline pilot who chooses to commit suicide while flying can easily do so even if the other pilot is sitting right there alongside him/her. It doesn’t take much imagination to see how to render the situation all-but unrecoverable in just a few seconds. By the time the other pilot reacts, the game is over.

How does having a flight attendant in the cockpit prevent this? (No offense to flight attendants - and I can see why having one there might be useful, to raise the alarm in case of a medical emergency or the like.)

[Alley_Dweller]

@Johnny_L.A

I’ve seen this claim, too. I skimmed Part 121 and didn’t see it.

Does this rule exist? If so, can someone cite ‘chapter and verse’?

FAA Order 8900.1 Flight Standards Information Management System (FSIMS)
Volume 3 GENERAL TECHNICAL ADMINISTRATION
CHAPTER 2 EXEMPTIONS, DEVIATIONS, WAIVERS, AND AUTHORIZATIONS

3-47 PROCEDURES FOR OPENING, CLOSING, AND LOCKING FLIGHT DECK DOORS.
…
B. Certificate Holders’ Procedures. Certificate holders’ procedures must include at least the following:

1. Normal procedures for opening flightcrew compartment doors to include:
   …
   f) Procedures for two person flightcrews, when one flightcrew member leaves the flight deck
   (i.e., a F/A must lock the door and remain on the flight deck until the flightcrew member returns to his or her station).

[Alley_Dweller]

@Siam_Sam

How are all you guys monitoring the cockpit to see what the pilots and crew do? I don’t think I’ve ever noticed that. I don’t think I’ve ever had a clear view of the cockpit door. Are you all flying first class?

I think in an A320 you can see what goes on if you are sitting on the left side of the plane as far back as the wings. (The galley might block your line of sight on the right.) Of course, YMMV.

As soon as the intercom signal dings and you see an FA scurry to the front and you see another FA pull out a service cart and block the aisle with it, you’ll know that the dance has begun. Just sit back and observe.

[Johnny_L.A]

Thank you, Alley Dweller.

[Siam_Sam]

@gazpacho

There are a lot of carriers that have only one class. If you fly Southwest being up front means you checked in 23 hours and 59 minutes before the scheduled flight time. Although they are starting to have an earlier check-in for a smallish fee. But even if you don’t buy early check in you can still see the cabin door.

I have definitely seen the flight attendant standing in front of the cabin door when one pilot is in the restroom. I don’t recall if another flight attendant went into the cabin while the pilot was gone.

@Alley_Dweller

I think in an A320 you can see what goes on if you are sitting on the left side of the plane as far back as the wings. (The galley might block your line of sight on the right.) Of course, YMMV.

As soon as the intercom signal dings and you see an FA scurry to the front and you see another FA pull out a service cart and block the aisle with it, you’ll know that the dance has begun. Just sit back and observe.

I guess I just haven’t been observant.

@md2000

The odd thing was the controlled descent. You’d think a suicide would do what the EgyptAir guy did, put it into a nosedive. After all, once he committed, he’d be in seriously deep shit even if he changed his mind. Why give yourself time to contemplate it and back out?

Maybe he wanted the sick “pleasure” of prolonging the anticipation for everyone else.

[LSLGuy]

I mentioned in one or the other current thread about the FedEx guy who wanted to harm his employer by crashing a jet into corporate HQ.

Assuming this does turn out to be declared a suicide, this guy may have been motivated partly by a desire to hurt his employer. The damage done to Germanwings is obvious.

Not that that justifies his actions in any way. But it might explain why he decided to do this at work versus just shooting himself at home or jumping off a convenient bridge.

[JustinC]

@Siam_Sam

<snip>
Maybe he wanted the sick “pleasure” of prolonging the anticipation for everyone else.

I think the explanation may be that he used a controlled descent for one/more of several reasons;

a) He didn’t want the passengers to suffer for too long
b) He was contemplating suicide for a long time and fear made him question his choice
c) He didn’t want the Captain to realise and use an emergency way of entering the cockpit
d) He was choosing the best place - apparently he was an experienced glider pilot in that region
e) Madness

[dr_zippermeyer]

It seems obvious commercial airplanes are not designed to deal with a situation where cockpit is occupied by a suicidal person. I wonder if there improvements would help:

1. There should be always two persons in the cockpit.

2. Locking the cockpit door completely requires two persons in cockpit operating two locking switches simultaneously.

3. One of the cabin crew members should always carry a device that can force the plane to engage autopilot for some time, no matter what pilot is doing. It could be used only once during the flight to prevent malicious use. This would be technologically challenging but not impossible.

4. Crew firearms (some airlines have them) should be replaced with tasers.

[Richard_Pearse]

@dr_zippermeyer

It seems obvious commercial airplanes are not designed to deal with a situation where cockpit is occupied by a suicidal person. I wonder if there improvements would help:

1. There should be always two persons in the cockpit.

What if one pilot smacks the other pilot in the head with the fire axe, or tasers him/her?

2. Locking the cockpit door completely requires two persons in cockpit operating two locking switches simultaneously.

See scenario 1.

3. One of the cabin crew members should always carry a device that can force the plane to engage autopilot for some time, no matter what pilot is doing. It could be used only once during the flight to prevent malicious use. This would be technologically challenging but not impossible.

What if it is the cabin crew who is the crazy one?

4. Crew firearms (some airlines have them) should be replaced with tasers.

See scenario 1

What ever “solution” you think up to solve the specific problem of an FO who locks the captain out is generally open to abuse by some other possibly crazy person.

The same goes for requiring a flight attendant to be in the cockpit while a pilot is out. Flight attendant is bonkers, brains the remaining pilot with the fire axe, and flies the aeroplane into a mountain or building. I happen to fly for a company that DOES require a flight attendant to be in the cockpit while a pilot is out for a pee, but it is only so they can unlock the cockpit door if the remaining pilot has a heart attack or something, it is useless as a suicide prevention measure.

Consider what has just happened due to the “solution” to the terrorist problem.

Something else to consider: A pilot can kill everybody very easily regardless of whether there’s another pilot with them. On short finals get your feet behind the control column and push forward with all your strength.

[kaltkalt]

The politically correct won’t like the sound of this, but since 9/11 we’ve tried to muslim-proof the cockpits of commercial planes with reinforced doors that cannot be broken down, and as a direct result of this 150 more people are now dead. Once again islam is responsible for the crash of a commercial airliner. If anyone outside the cockpit were to have a key or code to open the door, it wouldn’t be muslim-proof… “I have a bomb, open the cockpit door or else I blow up the plane right now, but let me in and everyone lives” = door will be opened 10 times out of 10. So it has to be clear that the door can only be opened from the inside of the cockpit (in other words, make it at least as visibly secure as the lavatory door).

[dr_zippermeyer]

@Richard_Pearse

What if one pilot smacks the other pilot in the head with the fire axe, or tasers him/her?

It psychologically and physically more demanding to kill your workmate than just lock the door and crash the plane. But even if he does that and turns the plane into dive, the door can be opened: first the plane is brought to level flight by cabin crew member with the device I suggested. Then rest of the crew enters the cockpit: as I suggested, it needs two person to prevent entry. Switches could be in different sides of the cockpit for example and they are needed to press simultaneously when someone is entering.

@Richard_Pearse

Something else to consider: A pilot can kill everybody very easily regardless of whether there’s another pilot with them. On short finals get your feet behind the control column and push forward with all your strength.

That is relevant and quite frightening point. I can’t immediately think about anything to help with that.