# Germanwings: Why was the Co-pilot allowed to fly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 29, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280 "2015-03-29T17:02:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/21 "2015-03-30T02:13:23Z")
The situation is a catch 22. People seek medical attention with the understanding of privacy. Take out the privacy and they won’t seen medical attention. We saw a pilot pulled from the cockpit within the last year who was clearly in some kind of psychotic state. It’s very possible he was under a doctor’s care. So… assuming statistically that there are mentally ill people in positions of responsibility for human life do we want them under some kind of care or not? If people don’t seek care then the number of crazy people doing something like this will go up. With that said, there is a method of removing dangerous people. The airlines had a policy where employees could use to turn in suspicious behavior. The copilot’s girlfriend or other employees could have said something anonymously if they thought he presented a danger. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/22 "2015-03-30T07:29:17Z")
> [@deanc2000](#): > > There is evidence that this co-pilot was assessed to be “unfit to fly”, for whatever reason, medical or psychological. > > Here’s my question: Why was the Co-pilot seemingly the only one that knew about this assessment? Why wasn’t it sent to Airline officials in order to assure that this man was not to pilot the plane? > > I used to work for the USAF, and the procedure was that if a pilot was found to have any reason at all to be less than 100%, it would go straight to his command, and this pilot would be grounded. > > If I were one of the family members of the victims, I think there’s grounds here for negligence. A pilot goes to the doctor with a cold on a day off. He tells him he’s a pilot and is having trouble clearing his ears. The doctor gives the pilot a note saying he is unfit to work for three days. The next day the pilot wakes up feeling a lot better, in a fit of idle fidgeting he tears up the note and puts it in the bin. He goes to work that day. Are you suggesting that in the above scenario the doctor should have called the pilot’s employer informing them that he was unwell and should be prohibited from flying? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/23 "2015-03-30T09:22:22Z")
> [@kellner](#): > > Yes. Those notes are legally required after the third missed day at the latest, but employers can demand them from day one. They can be issued by any licensed doctor, are not specific to a job and do not contain a diagnosis. The doctor just certifies that the patient is unfit for work (in general) and lists a start and estimated end date. That is the exact same type of note that he would have gotten for a cold. > > No. Once they have been handed in, many employers have a policy of treating them as binding either way, but that is not a legal requirement. > > Of course as a pilot he was subject to additional regulations, but his regular doctors play no part in that. so it is like the system in the francophone countries, as I thought. it means simply that the translation to english and reporting in the american press is distorting this, because of a misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/24 "2015-03-30T10:04:01Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > In summary, were these doctor’s notes for the purpose of _excusing_ him from work, which appears to be quite common in German workplaces? > > Or did the notes _forbid_ him from working? > > Those are two quite different things. Exactly. These doctor’s notes are meant to excuse an employee from work. I’ve been in the same situation myself: I had seen a doctor who wrote a note saying that I wasn’t fit for work for a number of days. I then called my office and found out that others had called in sick as well. I then decided to tough it out and go to work anyway because a young and unexperienced colleague of mine would have been the last (wo)man standing. I’m no pilot, though. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/25 "2015-03-30T11:31:14Z")
> [@deanc2000](#): > > There is evidence that this co-pilot was assessed to be “unfit to fly”, for whatever reason, medical or psychological. > > Here’s my question: Why was the Co-pilot seemingly the only one that knew about this assessment? Why wasn’t it sent to Airline officials in order to assure that this man was not to pilot the plane? > > I used to work for the USAF, and the procedure was that if a pilot was found to have any reason at all to be less than 100%, it would go straight to his command, and this pilot would be grounded. > > If I were one of the family members of the victims, I think there’s grounds here for negligence. USAF is a military outlet - not a civil corporation. Germanwings aka Lufthansa is a civilian corporation. Different rules apply. From what I gathered, the co pilot was a private patient of a civilian doctor, who gave his patient a sick note. If you get a sick note within the EU, you are entitled to the time off while you still get paid. However, I’m pretty sure if the Airline would have received the sick note with the illness being depression, they would have grounded that pilot indefinitely. The Co-Pilot may also have been on a contract which would not have been renewed if it came out that he suffered from depression. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/26 "2015-03-30T11:42:00Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > In summary, were these doctor’s notes for the purpose of _excusing_ him from work, which appears to be quite common in German workplaces? > > Or did the notes _forbid_ him from working? > > Those are two quite different things. If your are sick and a doctor confirms it and gives you a sick note - you can present this to your employer and you entitled to get the time off to recover from your illness while still receiving your wages and not loose any day of your holidays allowance. What you do with the doctors notice is up to the employee - your employer can not force you to work - yet the employee can choose to still go to work. It’s also not mandatory to show your employer your sick note. It’s not required of the doctor to inform the employer and the doctor may not know the employer. The story is different if the employer requests evaluation from a doctor for various reasons which are irrelevant to this thread, since Germanwings didn’t request a doctors certification. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/27 "2015-03-30T12:08:32Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > However, I’m pretty sure if the Airline would have received the sick note with the illness being depression, they would have grounded that pilot indefinitely. Don’t be too quick to assume that. These days, at least in the US, it is possible for someone with depression to receive treatment and return to the cockpit. We covered this in another thread. Generally what happens in the US is that the pilot is put on disability to receive treatment. After the situation stabilizes the pilot will undergo an evaluation to see if he/she is capable of safely operating an airliner and will probably be monitored afterward. The process is typically a year or longer. Given medical privacy laws it’s hard to draw definite conclusions about how well that’s working but since we don’t have airplanes raining out of the sky let’s assume it’s not disaster. Whether or not Europe or Lufthansa/Germanwings has a similar policy I don’t know. The point of all that is to encourage people with mental problems to get treated rather than trying to “tough it out” and risk having them snap. MOST people with depression don’t commit suicide. MOST people that commit suicide don’t take other people with them. This guy is an outlier, way far out on the edge. > [@](#): > > The Co-Pilot may also have been on a contract which would not have been renewed if it came out that he suffered from depression. That may or may not be true. As I said, thinking and practice on mental illness and flying has changed in recent years, at least in some places. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/28 "2015-03-30T12:18:41Z")
An additional medical issue which emerged is that this pilot also may have been treated for an eye condition (detachment of the retina) that had the potential to end his career in aviation. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/29 "2015-03-30T13:08:08Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Don’t be too quick to assume that. These days, at least in the US, it is possible for someone with depression to receive treatment and return to the cockpit. We covered this in another thread. > > Generally what happens in the US is that the pilot is put on disability to receive treatment. After the situation stabilizes the pilot will undergo an evaluation to see if he/she is capable of safely operating an airliner and will probably be monitored afterward. The process is typically a year or longer. Given medical privacy laws it’s hard to draw definite conclusions about how well that’s working but since we don’t have airplanes raining out of the sky let’s assume it’s not disaster. > > Whether or not Europe or Lufthansa/Germanwings has a similar policy I don’t know. The point of all that is to encourage people with mental problems to get treated rather than trying to “tough it out” and risk having them snap. > > MOST people with depression don’t commit suicide. MOST people that commit suicide don’t take other people with them. This guy is an outlier, way far out on the edge. > That may or may not be true. As I said, thinking and practice on mental illness and flying has changed in recent years, at least in some places. Not ruling out anything per say, since I don’t exactly know what the terms and conditions of his work contract was. I’m just aware, that for young pilots its very hard to get a job and that their contracts are many times only temporary or have a on-call policy,etc… especially with the budget airlines. Their yearly license to fly a specific airplane type is expensive, their wages low. Once you are with a high-end airline, things are good, but the success rate is not high. Sure, he was far out, since most people don’t commit mass murder while they suicide or even have the option to do so. Although apparently 36 pilots in the US [choose this method between '83-2003](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_methods#Aircraft) ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/30 "2015-03-30T13:15:17Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Sure, he was far out, since most people don’t commit mass murder while they suicide or even have the option to do so. Although apparently 36 pilots in the US [choose this method between '83-2003](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_methods#Aircraft) [To answer the question that I’m sure must be on everyone’s mind:](http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/asma/asem/2005/00000076/00000008/art00001) > [@](#): > > During the 21-yr study period, 37 pilots committed or attempted suicide by aircraft, with 36 resulting in at least one fatality. All the cases were men and involved general aviation flights. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/31 "2015-03-30T13:51:14Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > [To answer the question that I’m sure must be on everyone’s mind:](http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/asma/asem/2005/00000076/00000008/art00001) Oh, yes… This is so far outside the norm, its so EXTREMELY rare and this shouldn’t stop anyone from traveling by plane. A “aircraft fanatic” friend of mine came up with 3 (maybe 4) documented cases of suicidal pilots taking down a plane with them and that’s since there are commercial airlines flying the sky’s. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/32 "2015-03-30T14:01:49Z")
> [@deanc2000](#): > > … > If a doctor determines that a person is not fit to fly the plane, is he or she not duty bound to inform authorities to insure this person doesn’t fly the plane? If a doctor determines that my brother is gay, is he or she not duty bound to inform my sister in law to insure that they can break up with dignity rather than continue to live a charade? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/33 "2015-03-30T16:51:26Z")
I recall seeing news reports saying that Lubitz was deemed unfit to fly during his training period, and spent significant time in recovery thereafter. The OP may be conflating that finding with the doctor’s note found in the apartment. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/34 "2015-03-30T16:56:59Z")
Not sure the US rules, but IIRC airline pilots in Canada need a medical every year or every 6 months (?). For private pilots, it was every 2 years, and every year after age 40(?). Generally, their biggest concern is that you don’t black out from diabetes, heart attack, high blood pressure stroke, whatever. (And that your vision is good, plus that color-blindness test) Only some doctors bother to get licensed by Transport Canada or relevant body to do these checks. No pilot medical, no fly. I guess the question would be - does a treatment by a different doctor end up on a chart the aviation doctor would see? I recall a friend of mine once got a letter from the DMV telling him his license had been suspended for a reported medical condition - while he was in a full body cast recovering from a serious injury to his spine, and arm, and legs. It was certainly useful as a morale booster for someone trying to recover to know this was the government thinking about him. The doctor, of course, had no choice. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/35 "2015-03-30T19:11:31Z")
Yes, expanding on **md20000** ’s point, an airline pilot in Europe would need an EASA Class 1 Medical Certificate in order to be licensed to work. [This PDF link](https://easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/AMC%20and%20GM%20on%20the%20medical%20certification%20of%20pilots%20and%20medical%20fitness%20of%20cabin%20crew.pdf) seems to list the requirements for getting that license. Unsurprisingly, most of the requirements are related to physical health, but there is a section on mental health, too. E.g.: > [@EASA medical guidelines](#): > > Psychotic disorder: **A history, or the occurrence, of a functional psychotic disorder is disqualifying** unless a cause can be unequivocally identified as one which is transient, has ceased and will not recur. > > Mood disorder: **An established mood disorder is disqualifying.** After full recovery and after full consideration of an individual case a fit assessment may be considered, depending on the characteristics and gravity of the mood disorder. If a stable maintenance psychotropic medication is confirmed, a fit assessment should require a multi-pilot limitation. So it seems this pilot **should** have been denied his medical, unless he hid his condition from the aeromedical examiners? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/36 "2015-03-30T22:56:05Z")
No, both of those paragraphs allow for continuing to hold your medical if, paraphrased, it is considered that you are better now. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/37 "2015-03-30T23:35:12Z")
> [@dofe](#): > > Why do you believe a doctor duty to bound to do this? Are doctors supposed to inform courts when a defense attorney is diagnosed with serious psychological problems? Are doctors supposed to inform the DMV office when a patient is diagnosed with serious visual problems? In California some doctors practicing some specialties are required to notify the DMV if their patient experience a lapse of consciousness. If a doctor does this the DMV will send you forms to be filled out by you and your doctors about the condition and a determination is made on suspending your license. If they do suspend your license there is a procedure to get it back if the episode does not repeat after some amount of time. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/38 "2015-03-31T05:58:58Z")
From my reading, in the US Armed Forces, pilots perceive flight surgeons as the enemy. You go to see one with a pain or a cold and there’s a rise you leave his office grounded. So they’ll often go see a civilian Dr and pay out of their own pocket. My DOT physicals were arranged by the company I drove for. I was given a long form and a card to carry in my wallet saying I was healthy enough to drive and the company received a fax of the long form. And the company would put you out-of-service if there was an health issue. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/39 "2015-03-31T11:45:30Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Not sure the US rules, but IIRC airline pilots in Canada need a medical every year or every 6 months (?). For private pilots, it was every 2 years, and every year after age 40(?). Generally, their biggest concern is that you don’t black out from diabetes, heart attack, high blood pressure stroke, whatever. (And that your vision is good, plus that color-blindness test) Only some doctors bother to get licensed by Transport Canada or relevant body to do these checks. No pilot medical, no fly. I’m not sure it’s possible to detect depression in someone who is determined to hide it. My sister was depressed, unknown to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280/40 "2015-03-31T13:08:48Z")
> [@dofe](#): > > Why do you believe a doctor duty to bound to do this? Are doctors supposed to inform courts when a defense attorney is diagnosed with serious psychological problems? Are doctors supposed to inform the DMV office when a patient is diagnosed with serious visual problems? basically, yes, they would be best to. The standard is “if a crime would be committed”. the attorney being unfit to work is hard to explain, what crime is there ? Perhaps the court should always ask attorneys when they attend if they are fit, so then it would be perjury if they tell a lie. The person driving with serious vision problems is committing a crime… In the other thread I proposed that state governments actually accumulate information on all licenses, and the relevant licensing body then informed when a person is suspicious to the doctor… or its of significance like a pilot or train driver… Perhaps in the short term, police could informed by the doctor and then police attempt to find the person and verify that the person is “off sick” (to the neccessary extent… permanently out of piloting, for example) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/germanwings-why-was-the-co-pilot-allowed-to-fly/716280.md?page=3)