# Gerry Adams- Ex IRA Guman, Ex Deputy First Minister Arrested- Hoist by his own Petard? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2014, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425 "2014-05-01T08:39:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/121 "2014-05-07T07:52:20Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > Rwanda isn’t that big either and the killings were on a vastly larger scale, but they’ve followed a fairly similar policy. Rwanda has 12 million people. NI has 1.8 million. Also I’m not sure it’s working out all that well in Rwanda. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/122 "2014-05-07T07:58:00Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Google “Peter Robinson”, “Clontibret”. Rearrange the following words into a well known phrase or saying: “Joking fucking you be to have” So an ill advised demonstration where a couple of Gardai were beaten compares with the well known activities involving multiple murders by Adams and McGuiness? Purleeze. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/123 "2014-05-07T15:29:51Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Rearrange the following words into a well known phrase or saying: > > “Joking fucking you be to have” > > So an ill advised demonstration where a couple of Gardai were beaten compares with the well known activities involving multiple murders by Adams and McGuiness? > > Purleeze. Does [Ulster Resistance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Resistance) fit your criteria for a terrorist gang? More to the point, if a prominent politician from south of the border had organised several hundred armed men and landed in Caledon, Co. Tyrone and kidnapped and beat up a couple of RUC men, would that have been considered a terrorist action or not? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/124 "2014-05-07T15:55:46Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Does [Ulster Resistance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Resistance) fit your criteria for a terrorist gang? > > More to the point, if a prominent politician from south of the border had organised several hundred armed men and landed in Caledon, Co. Tyrone and kidnapped and beat up a couple of RUC men, would that have been considered a terrorist action or not? Which member of this organisation has been shown to be a commander in it with the ability to call for the killing of individuals- most rational people see that Adams and McGuinness held such positions. There is a difference between a stupid border incursion on the one hand and the dragging off of informers, torturing them and killing them, denying it and hiding bodies for a generation. If you cannot see the difference, there is no balance in your view. I suggest you read the three men’s Wikipedia entries Robinson was a twat. Adams and McGuiness were killers. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/125 "2014-05-07T16:36:17Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Which member of this organisation has been shown to be a commander in it with the ability to call for the killing of individuals- most rational people see that Adams and McGuinness held such positions. > > There is a difference between a stupid border incursion on the one hand and the dragging off of informers, torturing them and killing them, denying it and hiding bodies for a generation. > > If you cannot see the difference, there is no balance in your view. > > I suggest you read the three men’s Wikipedia entries > > Robinson was a twat. > > Adams and McGuiness were killers. I didn’t say there was no difference in their actions, just that Robinson did indeed command or at the very least was a senior member of a “terrorist gang” which was the point that **ruadh** and I were addressing. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/126 "2014-05-07T16:38:21Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Rwanda has 12 million people. NI has 1.8 million. Also I’m not sure it’s working out all that well in Rwanda. Surely its very size makes NI more in need for a TRC than bigger societies? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/127 "2014-05-07T16:47:59Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I didn’t say there was no difference in their actions, just that Robinson did indeed command or at the very least was a senior member of a “terrorist gang” which was the point that **ruadh** and I were addressing. Where is the evidence he was a member? On 7 August 1986, in protest at the Anglo-Irish Agreement, Robinson led a group of 500 loyalists into the village of Clontibret in County Monaghan in the Republic of Ireland. The loyalists attacked the unmanned Garda station in the village and daubbed loyalist slogans on the walls. They then held a quasi-military parade along the main street and attacked two Gardaí. More Gardaí arrived shortly after and fired shots in the air, scattering the loyalist crowd. Robinson was arrested and held at Monaghan Garda station. He pleaded guilty to unlawful assembly and was fined IR£17500 in a Drogheda court to escape a prison sentence. As a result, Robinson briefly resigned from the DUP deputy leadership.[23] There was also violence both before and after a court appearance in Dundalk, including Ian Paisley being attacked with stones and petrol bombs after Jim Wells and other Robinson supporters waved flags and sang Loyalist songs.[24] At his trial the judge described him as “a senior extremist politician”.[25][26] Ulster Resistance[edit] In November 1986, he spoke at the Ulster Hall demonstration which launched Ulster Resistance, an organisation which subsequently collaborated with the Ulster Defence Association and Ulster Volunteer Force to import arms from South Africa, resulting in Robinson leaving the organisation.[26][27] Robinson was photographed wearing the loyalist paramilitary military uniform at an Ulster Resistance demonstration. At a rally in Enniskillen, Peter Robinson announced; "‘Thousands have already joined the movement and the task of shaping them into an effective force is continuing. The Resistance has indicated that drilling and training has already started. The officers of the nine divisions have taken up their duties’.[28] Now compare that with the Wikipedia entries for Adams and McGuiness. An order of magnitude difference I would say! ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/128 "2014-05-07T20:30:12Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Rwanda has 12 million people. NI has 1.8 million. Also I’m not sure it’s working out all that well in Rwanda. Rwanda is roughly twice the size of NI in area. For six weeks in 1994 more people were (on average) being killed every day than in the entire 30 odd years of ‘The Troubles’. It was never going to be easy after that kind of attempted genocide, but the “Justice and Reconciliation” policy there has been successful, given the state the country was left in. As in NI and SA, old wounds will take a long time to heal. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/129 "2014-05-08T11:19:41Z")
Gerry Adams [puts forward his own case](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/07/jean-mcconville-killing-gerry-adams-innocent-accusers) in _The Guardian._ ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/130 "2014-05-08T11:21:45Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > Gerry Adams [puts forward his own case](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/07/jean-mcconville-killing-gerry-adams-innocent-accusers) in _The Guardian._ He would say that, wouldn’t he. It runs against all the evidence from within and without PIRA. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/131 "2014-05-08T12:14:28Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > He would say that, wouldn’t he. > > It runs against all the evidence from within and without PIRA. It was offered without comment, not as a defence for Adams. It’s relevant to the thread. I’m sure most readers of this thread are well informed enough to make their own opinion of it. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/132 "2014-05-08T12:39:55Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > It was offered without comment, not as a defence for Adams. It’s relevant to the thread. I’m sure most readers of this thread are well informed enough to make their own opinion of it. Given the attempt up thread to equate Peter Robinson with Adams and McGuiness, I feel it is important to consider the likely true position. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/133 "2014-05-08T13:20:14Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Where is the evidence he was a member? In your own cite. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/134 "2014-05-08T13:23:36Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Given the attempt up thread to equate Peter Robinson with Adams and McGuiness, I feel it is important to consider the likely true position. Fair enough. My previous post was just to clarify that I wasn’t supporting Adams’ article, just reporting it. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/135 "2014-05-08T13:36:26Z")
What I do not understand only having followed the news on Northern Ireland from afar these last few decades: How is Mr. Adams having blood on his hands news? If you make a peace agreement with an implicit promise of no more murders (I gather the explicit promise was disarmament), the only people in a position to make good on that promise - i.e. the only people that it makes sense negotiating with - would be those responsible for past murders. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/136 "2014-05-08T13:46:24Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > What I do not understand only having followed the news on Northern Ireland from afar these last few decades: How is Mr. Adams having blood on his hands news? If you make a peace agreement with an implicit promise of no more murders (I gather the explicit promise was disarmament), the only people in a position to make good on that promise - i.e. the only people that it makes sense negotiating with - would be those responsible for past murders. Because of the specific allegations made in the Boston School oral history project. Adams has been linked with McConville’s disappearance for many years but evidence was not forthcoming. I suspect that the taped allegations implicating Adams are inadmissible or not considered strong enough evidence to convict but time will tell. The Good Friday Agreement only provided for an early release of prisoners convicted of crimes related to paramilitary groups, it did not provide a blanket amnesty for paramilitary-related crimes committed prior to the agreement. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/137 "2014-05-08T16:02:19Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Which member of this organisation has been shown to be a commander in it with the ability to call for the killing of individuals- most rational people see that Adams and McGuinness held such positions. If you google Robinson and Ulster Resistance you will find pictures of him marching along side a terrorist and arms smuggler both wearing red berets. Don’t know for sure if Robinson or Paisley were involved at the sharp end of this but then again (while I “know” Adams was at the sharp end of his side) I have no actual proof of Adams involvement with the IRA. I’m just talking about actual proof here and not common knowledge etc. so don’t start talking about my rationality ok 🙂 Adams was a leader in the IRA and McGuinness was a leader and a gunman, that is my opinion of the matter. There is no actual proof from a legalistic POV to Adams being in the IRA from what I know. He’d have been charged if he was and if he is in the future charged it will be no surprise to me but as of now there is no proof that anyone knows of which is why he can do the Guardian article and why he was released by the PSNI. My only real point is that it’s futile to start trying to debate that one sides leaders are cleaner than the other when it comes to NI. There’s shite on almost all of them. By them I mean the Loyalist and the Republicans not Nationalist and Unionists although there is considerable crossover between all of them. You’d be better off just concentrating on the original point in the OP IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/138 "2014-05-08T17:09:06Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > If you google Robinson and Ulster Resistance you will find pictures of him marching along side a terrorist and arms smuggler both wearing red berets. > > Don’t know for sure if Robinson or Paisley were involved at the sharp end of this but then again (while I “know” Adams was at the sharp end of his side) I have no actual proof of Adams involvement with the IRA. I’m just talking about actual proof here and not common knowledge etc. so don’t start talking about my rationality ok 🙂 Adams was a leader in the IRA and McGuinness was a leader and a gunman, that is my opinion of the matter. There is no actual proof from a legalistic POV to Adams being in the IRA from what I know. He’d have been charged if he was and if he is in the future charged it will be no surprise to me but as of now there is no proof that anyone knows of which is why he can do the Guardian article and why he was released by the PSNI. > My only real point is that it’s futile to start trying to debate that one sides leaders are cleaner than the other when it comes to NI. There’s shite on almost all of them. By them I mean the Loyalist and the Republicans not Nationalist and Unionists although there is considerable crossover between all of them. > > You’d be better off just concentrating on the original point in the OP IMO. My original point was the specific problem of the history of the Politicians on the Nationalists side who are both (everybody really knows) core members of a terrorist organisation. No-one has accuse Robinson of anything more than association with extremists. Anyone with a political interest in politics in NI of either Nationalist or Unionist persuasion has been tarred with the brush of association with extremism, but it is only Adams and McGuinness who without much doubt were executive and participants in murderous acts. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/139 "2014-05-09T01:16:48Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t know what anyone can do for the McConville family, whose lives have been ripped apart to a degree I can’t comprehend. But the prospect of seeing old men on trial, whether British army or IRA, does not appeal to me. Perhaps I am Pollyannaish and suffer from a kind of middle-class detachment (my family was poor, financially ruined by the conflict, but retained its petit bourgeois worldview), but letting go of the past seems to me a better option than reliving it. Then again, it’s not for me—someone who survived the Troubles unscathed, other than perhaps the development of an overly keen sense of danger and a chip on my shoulder—to tell the relatives of murdered people they can’t have justice. I have no desire to tell the grieving to buck up. > **[Northern Ireland's Troubles Are Over. But That Doesn't Mean I Am at Peace.](https://newrepublic.com/article/117708/northern-ireland-peace-here-stay-so-are-awful-memories)** > > Gerry Adams's arrest awakens a journalist's awful childhood memories. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425/140 "2014-05-24T14:08:45Z")
If, as has been suggested in some quarters, Adams’ arrest was timed to make an impact on recent elections north and south, it doesn’t seem to have had the intended effect south of the border. In the local elections Sinn Féin have made significant inroads. It is looking likely they’ll form a part of the next government. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gerry-adams-ex-ira-guman-ex-deputy-first-minister-arrested-hoist-by-his-own-petard/687425.md?page=8)