# Gertrude Stein: "Nazi is a Nazi is a Nazi." **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 1, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gertrude-stein-nazi-is-a-nazi-is-a-nazi/620549 "2012-05-01T19:37:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gertrude-stein-nazi-is-a-nazi-is-a-nazi/620549/21 "2012-05-03T12:42:20Z")
I would prefer to remember Gertrude Stein for deathless prose like “Papa dozes mama blows her noses”. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gertrude-stein-nazi-is-a-nazi-is-a-nazi/620549/22 "2012-05-03T12:48:52Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Is this so uncommon amongst the modernist writers of that era? Ezra Pound was an overt fascist and Nazi collaborator; there is some quite blatant anti-semitism in some of T.S. Eliot’s poems from the 1920s; and that is just the Americans that spring to mind. The poet D’Annunzio (I think he counts as modernist in the same sense as Stein) effectively kickstarted the fascist takeover of Italy. Shit there was a brief resurgence of nazi/fascism chic among new wave and post-punk musicians, off the top of my head people who flirted with this crap include David Bowie, Bryan Ferry, I know there were a few more too. Were they being provacative? Really believed it? Who knows. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gertrude-stein-nazi-is-a-nazi-is-a-nazi/620549/23 "2012-05-03T15:05:41Z")
P.G. Wodehouse had some Nazi issues, too: [P.G. Wodehouse, Nazi sympathizer/collaborationist? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=348621) ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gertrude-stein-nazi-is-a-nazi-is-a-nazi/620549/24 "2012-05-03T16:00:37Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Shit there was a brief resurgence of nazi/fascism chic among new wave and post-punk musicians, off the top of my head people who flirted with this crap include David Bowie, Bryan Ferry, I know there were a few more too. Were they being provacative? Really believed it? Who knows. I am pretty sure that was ironic. In Britain, at any rate, the whole punk and post-punk thing (and, indeed, most of the serious rock - as opposed to pop - music scene) was very much on the political left, even the far left. If a rock musician so much as supported Margaret Thatcher, he would probably have been careful to keep quiet about it. Punk concerts were often promoted by organizations with names like Rock Against Racism. Both Bowie and Ferry (both of whom, incidentally, were major stars well before the rise of punk) were smart enough to know that if anyone took them for actual fascists, their fan base would have evaporated in seconds. However, they were also smart enough to know, and to know their fans would know, that they could play with some of that symbolism without anyone believing they really were Nazis. There were _some_ neo-Nazi punk bands, but their following was minuscule. The fascism of some of the 1920s and 1930s modernists, by contrast, was quite as sincere as the Communism of some of the others, although they (Fascists and Communists alike) varied a lot in their degree of commitment. Eliot is only overtly anti-Semitic in about three poems, all published before 1920, I think, and eventually turned himself (a boy from St Louis, MO) into an English Anglo-Catholic high Tory (plenty right-wing, but not fascist). By contrast, his friend Ezra Pound (the man who turned Eliot’s _Waste Land_ from an incoherent mess of fragments into the poetic expression of a generational _zeitgeist_) went to Italy and offered his services to Mussolini, and worked enthusiastically through World War II as a Fascist propagandist and anti-Semitic provocateur. Stein, by the sound of it, was somewhere in between. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gertrude-stein-nazi-is-a-nazi-is-a-nazi/620549/25 "2012-05-03T16:07:27Z")
Perhaps it something to do with the fact that both Fascism and Modernism were at their core Romantic movements. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gertrude-stein-nazi-is-a-nazi-is-a-nazi/620549/26 "2012-05-03T16:08:45Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I am pretty sure that was ironic. In the cases **grude** mentioned, I’m sure it was. In some places in the punk scene, it apparently wasn’t just chic and was not ironic at all. My only cite is “Nazi Punks Fuck Off” by the Dead Kennedys. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gertrude-stein-nazi-is-a-nazi-is-a-nazi/620549/27 "2012-05-03T18:19:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > In the cases **grude** mentioned, I’m sure it was. In some places in the punk scene, it apparently wasn’t just chic and was not ironic at all. My only cite is “Nazi Punks Fuck Off” by the Dead Kennedys. Well, if you had read to the end of the paragraph: > [@](#): > > There _were_ some neo-Nazi punk bands, but their following was minuscule. Anyway, I was explicitly talking about the British scene, where punk was very entangled with leftist politics. The Dead Kennedys were American, and things may have been different there (not that your cite really implies that Nazis loomed large in the American punk movement anyway). My impression is that it was less politicized than British punk (but still probably tended to lean left). ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gertrude-stein-nazi-is-a-nazi-is-a-nazi/620549/28 "2012-05-03T18:33:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Perhaps it something to do with the fact that both Fascism and Modernism were at their core Romantic movements. Oh, absolutely, but what cultural movement, since Romanticism, hasn’t had a large dash or Romanticism at its core? You can’t really get away from it (and some of the Modernists were trying to, quite hard). The thing is, it is easy for us, now, to see that Naziism (and by extension, anti-Semitism in general) is evil. We know about Auschwitz. It was a lot less obvious in the 1920s and '30s, when no-one had seen the more horrific consequences. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gertrude-stein-nazi-is-a-nazi-is-a-nazi/620549/29 "2012-05-03T18:46:31Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Yes, I am asking about Stein. Why is (or was) she famous? She was an important figure in the Paris art and literary scene in the 20s, being friends with Hemingway and Fitzgerald among others. She also coined the name Lost Generation for those who had served in WWI. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gertrude-stein-nazi-is-a-nazi-is-a-nazi/620549/30 "2012-05-03T19:04:41Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > The fascism of some of the 1920s and 1930s modernists, by contrast, was quite as sincere as the Communism of some of the others, although they (Fascists and Communists alike) varied a lot in their degree of commitment. Eliot is only overtly anti-Semitic in about three poems, all published before 1920, I think, and eventually turned himself (a boy from St Louis, MO) into an English Anglo-Catholic high Tory (plenty right-wing, but not fascist). By contrast, his friend Ezra Pound (the man who turned Eliot’s _Waste Land_ from an incoherent mess of fragments into the poetic expression of a generational _zeitgeist_) went to Italy and offered his services to Mussolini, and worked enthusiastically through World War II as a Fascist propagandist and anti-Semitic provocateur. Stein, by the sound of it, was somewhere in between. Stein’s support may not have been as open and enthusiastic as Pound’s but it’s still considerably more puzzling. You can’t just attribute it to being under the duress of occupation because Stein was an ardent supporter of Hitler before WWII began even though virulent anti-Semitism was one of the main principles of Nazism. As I said in my previous post, unless someone has deep-seated psychological problems, I can’t imagine why anyone would ally herself and support a movement that openly calls for the ultimate extinction of you and everyone like yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gertrude-stein-nazi-is-a-nazi-is-a-nazi/620549/31 "2012-05-03T19:08:49Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Stein’s support may not have been as open and enthusiastic as Pound’s but it’s still considerably more puzzling. You can’t just attribute it to being under the duress of occupation because Stein was an ardent supporter of Hitler before WWII began even though virulent anti-Semitism was one of the main principles of Nazism. As I said in my previous post, unless someone has deep-seated psychological problems, I can’t imagine why anyone would ally herself and support a movement that openly calls for the ultimate extinction of you and everyone like yourself. I know very little about her, really–was she religious at all? Self-hating Jew, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gertrude-stein-nazi-is-a-nazi-is-a-nazi/620549/32 "2012-05-03T19:18:01Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Perhaps it something to do with the fact that both Fascism and Modernism were at their core Romantic movements. Well, Mussolini did know how to woo the ladies! ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gertrude-stein-nazi-is-a-nazi-is-a-nazi/620549/33 "2012-05-03T20:45:00Z")
I’ll bet he was never late for dates. At least not if he used the trains. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gertrude-stein-nazi-is-a-nazi-is-a-nazi/620549/34 "2012-05-03T22:22:51Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > I know very little about her, really–was she religious at all? Self-hating Jew, maybe? I know something about her and, until I read something stating otherwise, I’m fairly sure she wasn’t religious. Of course, if you were Jewish, the Nazis didn’t care if you were devout, an atheist, or a Christian convert. Your ancestry was enough to condemn you. As for Stein being self-hating, that was a possibility I addressed in my previous post in this thread. Perhaps someone who knows more about Stein can fill us in on this subject. It’s certainly curious to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gertrude-stein-nazi-is-a-nazi-is-a-nazi/620549/35 "2012-05-04T01:17:10Z")
“Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it’s an ethos.” - Walter [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gertrude-stein-nazi-is-a-nazi-is-a-nazi/620549.md?page=1)