# Get a grip, Jonathan **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [August 24, 2015, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713 "2015-08-24T12:54:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/21 "2015-08-24T16:21:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Keep in mind that this was a mod note, not a warning. Mod notes are often given when a moderator thinks a poster is approaching the line, even if he hasn’t crossed it. I don’t know whether this was the case or not here, but you don’t have to break a rule to get a mod note. Elvisl1ves does not look to me like the one who was nearing crossing a line. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/22 "2015-08-24T16:24:14Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Elvisl1ves does not look to me like the one who was nearing crossing a line. If you mean **Shayna** , I noted in my first post that I thought she crossed the line. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/23 "2015-08-24T16:42:31Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Nobody on this board is going to individually, single-handedly give the White House back to the Republicans. The only way that I can see to take that remark seriously, “You can go on helping the Republicans take back the White House if you want, but don’t expect not to get severely criticized for it.”, is to read it as: > You [meaning all of you, collectively] can go on helping the Republicans take back the White House if you want, but don’t expect not to get severely criticized [meaning publicly criticized collectively] for it. > > \ > > The comment under question here seems to be of that same form. Much as I dislike **ElvisL1vis** from what I’ve seen of him in many threads, I have to defend him here. I didn’t see anything personal in his remark. All I can see in it is “[All of] You [collectively, who that that position] . . . get severely criticized.” This is the same board that once ruled that a poster saying “I’ll mop the floor with you [when you try that argument]”\* as a personal threat of physical violence, so…it’s generally not a good idea to guess what this board is going assume is personal. \*[Cite](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=502463&page=2) ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/24 "2015-08-24T16:49:09Z")
There seems to have been a rise in… immoderate moderation lately. Sort of leaning towards “if we yell at them from time to time there won’t be so much noise” and away from actual, well, thoughtful response and intervention in the discussions. Maybe it’s just summer blahs. :shrug: ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/25 "2015-08-24T17:21:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If the criticism gets “personal”, yes. In that post, **Elvis** is threatening to criticize her if she helps the GOP get their candidate elected. Criticize her, not her ideas. And not just criticize, “severely criticize”. He did not threaten to criticize _her_. Elvis did not quote her or mention her name. Istm he was referring to anyone who supports Sanders to the point of wrecking the Democrats chances. And frankly, it would still be bizarre for you to assume he’s threatening some personal attack. The fact that you are so surprised that no one agrees with you really should tell you something about your judgement here. You’ve been way off track lately with a hair trigger at the slightest hint of personal animosity. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/26 "2015-08-24T17:25:13Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > He did not threaten to criticize _her_. Elvis did not quote her or mention her name. Istm he was referring to anyone who supports Sanders to the point of wrecking the Democrats chances. > > And frankly, it would still be bizarre for you to assume he’s threatening some personal attack. The fact that you are so surprised that no one agrees with you really should tell you something about your judgement here. You’ve been way off track lately with a hair trigger at the slightest hint of personal animosity. This is how I read it as well – that anyone (in this case liberals who attack Hillary Clinton) who damages the Democrats’ prospects of winning the 2016 election should expect severe criticism (of the “what you are doing is hurting America” variety), and that doesn’t seem ‘moddable’ in any way whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/27 "2015-08-24T17:40:15Z")
You guys must not be familiar with the long stand-in feud between those two on that exact subject. There’s even a Pit thread about it. I think it’s absurd to claim that **Elvis** did not mean to include her, specifically, in that post. But you know how things work around here. It’s the moderators call, and since it was a mod note, not a warning, no harm no foul. I can’t see that a retraction is realistic. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/28 "2015-08-24T17:44:18Z")
Well sure it would _include_ her as she seems a rabid Sanders supporter but it still seems that she wouldn’t be any more targeted for the ominous criticism. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/29 "2015-08-24T17:50:43Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > And frankly, it would still be bizarre for you to assume he’s threatening some personal attack. The fact that you are so surprised that no one agrees with you really should tell you something about your judgement here. You’ve been way off track lately with a hair trigger at the slightest hint of personal animosity. I’m explaining how the rules work, not saying I endorse them. So all that matters is if the mods agree with me, not what posters think. The purpose of my post is to predict mod behavior, not any poster’s reaction to it. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/30 "2015-08-24T17:58:11Z")
This seems out of left field and totally misreading the comment. If there’s some long-standing back story feud going on, that’s more reason to slap **Shayna** ’s hand on junior modding as well. But this is a case I’d like to see an actual personal attack or reasonable facsimile rather than a hand slap for using the word “criticize”. Sure, it’s only a mod note, but it’s still completely wrong. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/31 "2015-08-24T18:35:17Z")
I thought personal attacks were off limits, but is “criticism” or even “severe criticism” necessarily a personal attack? I certainly didn’t think so. It seems pretty easy to come up with criticism that isn’t a personal attack (like, say “attacks like yours on Hillary Clinton risk damaging the Democratic party’s chances to win 2016”). ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/32 "2015-08-24T19:05:15Z")
If I said “If you jump off the Empire State building _you’re going to go splat like a bug_” would I be issuing a personal criticism of you? How about “If you jump off the ocean liner _you’re going to drown like a rat_”? Am I personally criticizing you? So how is “If you continue your current ways _you’re going to endure serious criticism_” an injurious criticism? ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/33 "2015-08-24T19:29:55Z")
The only thing that matters is what the Mod thinks it meant. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/34 "2015-08-24T19:35:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If the criticism gets “personal”, yes. In that post, **Elvis** is threatening to criticize her if she helps the GOP get their candidate elected. Criticize her, not her ideas. And not just criticize, “severely criticize”. Taken literally yeah, but it took a while for me to parse this. Taken ultra-literally, Elvis didn’t criticize her or even threaten her. He just observed that she is likely to be pitted in the pit if she continues with certain behaviors. Not necessarily by him. Not necessarily outside of the Pit. Too literal? Fine. Dial it back then. The way I originally read it was, “Your ideas will be severely attacked if you do thus and so”. Or rather, “There will be strong language in this forum directed at your posts if you do thus and so.” It would have been better form to adjust his language to emphasize ideas… but that wasn’t the tone of Jon’s post. No harm, no foul: it was just a mod note. But I think the OP was valid. If nothing else I’m guessing that Jon Chance _wants_ to mod with clarity, and again I had to read John Mace’s post before I grokked to the situation. It’s always better to attack the post and not the poster. But I’d cut Elvis some slack as he was one step removed from a direct attack and I don’t think he was gaming the system. But it was only a mod note. Yada yada. Chat, chat, yabber, yabber… Outrage! Yabber, yabber, yada, yada. … ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/35 "2015-08-24T20:29:37Z")
It’s not even in the same league as a personal attack, much less the same ballpark. Yeah, it may be just a mod note, but there’s no reason **Jonathan Chance** couldn’t apologize just the same. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/36 "2015-08-24T20:33:46Z")
Well, I won’t apologize for it but I will review it. 1. I believe Elvis was getting too personal in his comments. This follows a process in the thread where both sides are getting too personal - or taking things personally, whatever - and things are heating up emotionally. 2. You’re right that I should have noted Shayna as well and I’ll go off to try to calm everyone down in there right now. 3. We have Sixteen more fucking months of this. Gevalt. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/37 "2015-08-24T20:40:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You guys must not be familiar with the long stand-in feud between those two on that exact subject. There’s even a Pit thread about it. This. They go at each other like this in multiple threads. They are getting personal. Mod Note totally justified. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/38 "2015-08-24T22:13:03Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > This. They go at each other like this in multiple threads. They are getting personal. Mod Note totally justified. Damn auto-correct. That was, of course, supposed to be “long standing”. And by “long” I mean [going back to 2007.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=765625) ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/39 "2015-08-24T22:21:11Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > … > > 1. We have Sixteen more fucking months of this. Gevalt. Optimist. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713/40 "2015-08-24T22:29:17Z")
Yeah, I didn’t see it, either. Maybe it was coming, but not there yet. At best preemptive, not even sure of that. OTOH, it was only a Note. meh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-a-grip-jonathan/728713.md?page=3)