# Get Out of Dodge Debate... Morons **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 31, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366 "2005-08-31T00:47:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/221 "2005-09-05T00:41:34Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Rysdad: > > I’m wondering if you have a cite for silt collapse from a standing body of water, or silt collapse period… [I found one, but it’s iffy, at best.](http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:k3Lrs1KpATQJ:home.chatt.net/~henson3/canoe.html+%22weight+of+the+silt%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) I really don’t want to look for any more. I’m satisfied that it happens. If you don’t want to grant that it does, that’s OK, too. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/222 "2005-09-05T00:50:29Z")
> [@Rysdad](#): > > No, not offhand I don’t, but I’ve seen it (or at least the aftermath of it). What happens is that the silt begins to weigh the floor down, and the floor begins to sag in the middle. That makes more silt slide down to collect in the middle. More sag, more silt, etc., and then it collapses. Most of the structures in the New Orleans area are dried or are close to being dried right now. This “silt sag” seems not to be happening. Also, there’s a huge misconception in your posts regarding the size of a prospective levee. I know **Una** was the source of the 100-ft-high figure, but I posit that that is considerable overkill. The levees need to be a little higher, but much stronger – strength was much more of an issue than height. Keep in mind that the majority of flooding in New Orleans was due to a loose barge knocking out a section of a major canal levee. It was basically a freak accident that would have never happened had that barge not just happened to be their in support of a road construction project. Of course, there was quite a bit of deep flooding caused by the breach of another canal levee across town from the aforementioned barge accident. This breach cause the deepest flooding in the area, yet was caused by structural weakness, not water rising above the levee. Therefore, even uniform 30-ft levees would be more than adequate. 35 or 40 feet would serve as overbuilding benchmarks, if that were desired. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/223 "2005-09-05T01:00:19Z")
> [@Rysdad](#): > > I really don’t want to look for any more. I’m satisfied that it happens. If you don’t want to grant that it does, that’s OK, too. How high does the water in a house have to be for “silt sag” to occur? Sure this is no issue with waist-deep floding in a home? And for those homes you saw flooded to the roofs … those are going to be totalled anyway. Not sure how silt sag is going to be much of a factor in the overall reconstruction. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/224 "2005-09-05T02:02:02Z")
Don’t forget, most of these NO buildings have no basement. Couldn’t keep it dry if they had one. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/225 "2005-09-05T02:08:05Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > No, I’m saying the place looks like a huge swamp of the type prone to seasonal flooding. But you could just take Una’s levees and build _them_ around Naginville. > [@](#): > > _Excellent, I would be very upset if you proposed to destroy alligator bayou and commit heinous acts of destruction on a pristine and fragile ecosystem of depth and beauty._ The way the current Powers That Be have destroyed virtually all of the Gulf Coast wetlands? Gee…we wouldn’t wanna do _that_… " :rolleyes: " 😃 > [@](#): > > _Where’s your river access though. I thought the whole idea was that the city has to be next to the rive._ Maybe…dig a big ditch to connect it with the river? Oops, sorry, I forgot the Army Corps of Engineers doesn’t like 'em to be called “ditches”–they’re [ahem] “canals”. Anyway, build a bigass canal like the Welland Canal to connect the city with the river. > [@](#): > > _Sheesh if we’re going to drain a fragile wetland and build levees and then build a whole city from scratch, why not just save the effort, save Alligator Bayou and just make the levees around NOLA stronger?_ Well, yeah, we could do that, but it wouldn’t be nearly as much fun, nor would it generate nearly as much pork barrel lard as constructing Brasilia-Version 2.0 from scratch out in the Loosiana boonies. > [@](#): > > _I think Levees are great. I think they’re fine. But, it seems to me the whole point of moving the city was to avoid levees (which according to Rysdad seem impossible to build.)_ Nah, the whole point of moving the city is to make Rysdad happy. He sez it can’t be salvaged, so we’ll just pack up the whole thing and take it upstream. Then he’ll be happy, and maybe he’ll stop keeping score with Chigger Points. > [@](#): > > _I will also point out that the whole area is swampland from the Mississippi, and contains Rysdad’s deadly poison toxic silt rendering it uninhabitable for all eternity and probably a biohazard as well._ Sure, but that never stopped anybody from building before. Love Canal? If you build it, they will come and buy lots there–and let the 22nd century worry about toxic basement seepage. > [@](#): > > _This is true, but St. Louis sucks ass._ Well, yeah, you got me there. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/226 "2005-09-05T02:11:12Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > How high does the water in a house have to be for “silt sag” to occur? Sure this is no issue with waist-deep floding in a home? I’m not sure. Depends on the height of the water as well as the silt content. If I recall correctly, the flooded houses I saw had their high water marks near the middle of the windows–lower than NO, but higher than waist deep. I seem to recall the high water mark was about as high as I was tall. (By the way, the houses I saw were flooded during the 1965 and 1969 floods here in the Twin Cities. I was only 12 or 16 at the time so it’s hard to remember fine details. ) > [@](#): > > And for those homes you saw flooded to the roofs … those are going to be totalled anyway. Not sure how silt sag is going to be much of a factor in the overall reconstruction. True, but I still maintain that reconstruction may not be an option. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/227 "2005-09-05T02:15:09Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > I’m sure you’re right, be it foolish or no, but… > > It sure as heck would be nice if they do a bit of triage, at least. “This we’ll restore, this we’ll rebuild, this we’ll plow under and elevate, this we’ll leave to Lake Pontchartrain…” After that, fix the damn levee system so it A) Doesn’t cause the rest of the Delta to sink or wash away, and B) It can handle at least a catagory 4 hurricane. Very good point. Even if you do decide that you have to restore a considerable city where NOLA is, you do not HAVE to replicate exactly the NOLA that got destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/228 "2005-09-05T02:23:31Z")
> [@Rysdad](#): > > We have to allow for the fact that, if a bigger, higher levee is built all the way around the city, then we’re going to have to: > > a) Sacrifice something of value, AND > b) Pay a whole hell of a lot for it. Duh. Please explain how this would be more expensive than relocating the whole damn city and all attendant transportation and utility lines, plus modifying the river to allow access to sea vessels. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/229 "2005-09-05T02:35:41Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > How high does the water in a house have to be for “silt sag” to occur? Sure this is no issue with waist-deep floding in a home? > > And for those homes you saw flooded to the roofs … those are going to be totalled anyway. Not sure how silt sag is going to be much of a factor in the overall reconstruction. I finally found a picture of the 1965 flood [here](http://mrbdc.mnsu.edu/mnbasin/fact_sheets/photos/historic/1965_flood-copy.jpg). It’s from [this site.](http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:mDl1I6X6ijsJ:mrbdc.mnsu.edu/mnbasin/fact_sheets/timeline.html+%221965+flood%22+%22st+paul%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) That seems to be about as I remember it. The 1969 flood was lower. The only reason I remember it to any degree at all is because I attended my cousin’s wedding about a week before the '65 flood, and she lived just outside the edge of the area that flooded. My parents and I drove back over there to scope out the damage afterward. I went over to look at the 1969 flood with some friends from school. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/230 "2005-09-05T02:37:14Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > While I think UNA is an intelligent babe, and I don’t have problems with anything that she’s posted, I don’t think she qualifies as the arbiter of all that is just and good. Good grief, where did that last part come from? Where did I say or imply that? I’m more likely to imply or say the opposite, unless it’s about the Subject That Will Not Be Named. And why is my name in all capitals, as opposed to when you mention Rysdad? That’s an odd sentence, up there. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/231 "2005-09-05T02:37:16Z")
> [@sturmhauke](#): > > Duh. Please explain how this would be more expensive than relocating the whole damn city and all attendant transportation and utility lines, plus modifying the river to allow access to sea vessels. I will. Soon. And I won’t have to modify the river at all. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/232 "2005-09-05T02:38:37Z")
> [@Rysdad](#): > > I will. Soon. And I won’t have to modify the river at all. Well, I have to qualify that to “not much.” But my changes will make it better. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/233 "2005-09-05T02:41:16Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Very good point. Even if you do decide that you have to restore a considerable city where NOLA is, you do not HAVE to replicate exactly the NOLA that got destroyed. BINGO! ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/234 "2005-09-05T03:29:16Z")
What, so now you’re just arguing that New Orleans might be changed by the experience? Well, duh. And that sounds suspiciously like a backpedal. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/235 "2005-09-05T03:59:21Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > Good grief, where did that last part come from? I’m guessing post 213. Congratulations, you’ve just been promoted. The Certificate will be forthcoming in the mail. It’s a pretty nice one: apparently it’s been chisled in stone. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/236 "2005-09-05T04:02:51Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > Good grief, where did that last part come from? Where did I say or imply that? I’m more likely to imply or say the opposite, unless it’s about the Subject That Will Not Be Named. Well no. You never made such claims. But, if you look at the immortal chigger point post, you will see that Rysdad seems to be crediting you with extraordinary powers. So, I wasn’t denying any of your claims, which were considered, qualified, and modest. I was denying Rysdad’s claims concerning your powers. > [@](#): > > And why is my name in all capitals, as opposed to when you mention Rysdad? That’s an odd sentence, up there. Because in the Land Leviathon it’s revealed that UNA isn’t a name, but initials, designating the agency for which Ms. Persson is employed. It’s either that or the cap locks got stuck and I didn’t backspace enough. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/237 "2005-09-05T04:17:27Z")
> [@Rysdad](#): > > [I found one, but it’s iffy, at best.](http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:k3Lrs1KpATQJ:home.chatt.net/~henson3/canoe.html+%22weight+of+the+silt%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) > > I really don’t want to look for any more. I’m satisfied that it happens. If you don’t want to grant that it does, that’s OK, too. Well, that is something. Kansas city wasn’t rendered uninhabitable by the deadly silt though, so it doesn’t really help your case. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/238 "2005-09-05T04:17:48Z")
OK, I understand now, thanks! But this… > [@Scylla](#): > > Because in the Land Leviathon it’s revealed that UNA isn’t a name, but initials, designating the agency for which Ms. Persson is employed. > > It’s either that or the cap locks got stuck and I didn’t backspace enough. OK…I need to know if I’m being whooshed, because if the first possibility is true, I _really_ need to go and re-read my books, because I’ve forgotten a lot. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/239 "2005-09-05T04:21:40Z")
> [@Rysdad](#): > > . > > I’m also not going to make it a me vs. Scylla thing anymore, but I feel that I owe it to anyone who’s wasted one tenth the time reading this thread as I have put into researching, cut-and-pasting, linking, finding, losing, refinding and writing all the stuff. Ummm. Remember the $20,000? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366/240 "2005-09-05T04:24:51Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > I’m guessing post 213. > > Congratulations, you’ve just been promoted. The Certificate will be forthcoming in the mail. It’s a pretty nice one: apparently it’s been chisled in stone. Ah, thank you. I need to read that post then. I’ve been out playing “servals and sunburn” at a Zoo with **auntie em** and **SkipMagic** part of this weekend, and then moving on to “swords and sunburnery” at the RennFest the other portion of the weekend, so I’m a bit behind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-of-dodge-debate-morons/319366.md?page=13)