I’m not professing myself to be an expert, or as a person who has the answer, but rather saying that there appears to be a much more fundamental solution which relies on simple, tried and true methods, that don’t need huge amounts of technology. I know some decent amount about levees and dams, and I’ve seen some massive construction projects that could easily make a levee which surrounds the city and which keeps the sea, river, and lake out. Three Gorges comes to mind as an example.
I mean, we think of the sea as being a massive thing to keep out - after all, there’s all those thousands of square miles of water, right? But the truth is that a major levee expansion, circling the city, a few hundred meters thick and 20 or more meters higher, would keep out pretty much anything until the ice caps melt a lot or the sea expands.
It doesn’t solve the problem of the saturated ground, and it doesn’t solve the problems of what to do with the rain, but it sure would stop the sea, river, and lake from ever coming in. Even if the levee sinks a bit under its own weight, it’s easy to top it off. Expensive, yes. Massive, yes. But certainly doable, and requiring no special tech. Sink piles of concrete and steel, lay down a core of rock, and pile the dirt and clay on. Finish with deep-root trees and grass to prevent erosion and to add green space, and you make it a giant beltway park. It makes the city look like a doughnut, and from the mind’s eye it still sounds like it’s at risk, but I assure you, you can build a levee that won’t break and won’t get overwashed, provided you just build for effect.
In the thread cited by Scylla, Diogenes mentions he was living here during the Flood of '97. I, too, was here and still am. Dio and I both have first-hand knowledge of what a flood does to a city. And how a city can respond to total devastation. Check out the building engulfed in flames. I was eventually rebuilt and I work on the 3rd floor of the building. A big part of the equation is the stock of people in a given area. For instance, there wasn’t one case of looting reported. Pretty much whatever you left behind, you still had. In a really wet, oily manner.
Watching the fly-overs of N.O., Biloxi, Mobile, and other cities I was taken back to those weeks in late April of 1997. I remember sitting in my Aunt and Uncle’s living room in Minot watching CNN coverage trying to locate our house to see how bad it was. To this day I just know I saw my house, but it may have been the stress of seeing the actual neighborhood, and not an individual structure. It was too overwhelming.
We were told over and over that the river would flood. We knew it. It floods every year. But the levees and dikes built after the '79 Flood were going to keep us safe. Based on river level projections. (A flood is when a river overflows the banks. Dikes and levees are built to keep the water from the city. Big difference in a river flooding and a city flooding.)
Anyway, we knew after 7 blizzards there was a shitload of water that would be drained. Keep in mind that the Red River Valley is basically a tabletop. Look at your desk right now and spread it out a few hundred miles. That is exactly what the land looks like. Dump a glass of water on the desk and you’ll see how far a little can affect.But we have coulees, pumps and some natural drainage. We’ve been able to fare pretty well.
Then that Hannah bitch-cunt hit. (We name our blizzards). The storm was expected and we prepared. What we didn’t count on was the fucking ice. Ice everywhere. Enough fucking ice to keep Ted Kennedy, Dean Martin and Sammy Jr in martinis for centuries. The ice killed the power, killing the pumps, killing the city.
Nobody could prepare for that. Yet, somehow we were expected to. While watching CNN in Minot, some morning show, some douchebag calls into one of the shows and shits on us by saying it’s our own fault for living in a flood-prone area. All the while we’re watching our city inundated.
Then the assclown in the other thread (as well as this one) have to bring up the global warming angle to politicize it. I give you one Mr Albert Gore Jr. Global warming was the cause. I was standing in the hanger at the Grand Forks Air Force Base when the speech was given by Clinton. I instinctivly knew it would be used for politics. But he was the President, so I was hoping for some hope. It helped ease some tension that the President was here talking to us. I disagreed with so many things he stood for and wanted to do, but it was somehow comforting knowing the Big Guy hadn’t forgotten about us. Sadly, I’m anticipating a thread somehow blaming Bush for the Hurricane.
Any wonder why he didn’t carry North Dakota? We haven’t flooded since, despite the new dikes, levees and diversions at the cost of millions (I quit counting around '02) that still aren’t done. Apparently Katrina “proves” global warming is still happening, yet no flooding here for 8 years.
Oh, I should probably mention that 1997 was called a “500 Year Flood”. Got that?*** 500 YEARS.*** Man! Imagine the value of an antique 1497 Hummer!
**Rysdad **, I’d love to take the time and imagination to come up with a really good insult, but I hate to take you away from calling CNN to tell the sick and dying that it’s their fault for living in The Big Easy.
You are a disgusting life form. I’m ashamed to be called human if you are as well. Please go somewhere and [deleted]
Thank you, Una, for a reasoned alternative. I’m not sure as to its feasibilty for the reasons I stated, but it’s something to go on.
The fact remains, though, that any hard, sustained rain will, by necessity, accumulate there, again inundating the inhabitants.
I don’t think the Three Gorges project tried to save a city-in-a-donut while letting the water rise around it. Maybe so, but I haven’t heard of it. But that’s what is happening, and what will continue to happen, to New Orleans.
No, I brought it up because it’s not easy to predict, under current climate models, what the sea levels will be in 100 years. If I said confidently “oh, 20 meters of height would last forever” then I’d have the global warming apocalypse people jumping all over my arse. So I’m hedging,
Assume a 20 meter height, 20 degree slope, with a 100 meter top, and you have:
100m + 2*(20/(tan 20)) = 210 meters
That’s from base level. Assuming that a significant amount of space is already taken up by the existing levees, then adding to their height does not eat up that much extra space. Taking a bit more than two football fields of length around the perimeter of the city - not necessarily on any existing neighbourhoods. So we can simply ring the city outside of the existing neighbourhoods, like where the existing levees are in many places.
If you keep out the storm surge, then you only need pumping for the rain. Which they already have. Of course, if a 20 meter storm surge hits, then all bets are off. Has there ever, in history, been a 20 meter storm surge in the Gulf? Anywhere? Mind you, the surge for this storm was 20-25 feet, not meters.
With no sarcasm intended, I’m afraid I do not understand.
I’m sorry that you feel my idea, which I feel is doable, fits under the current technology, and which does not require any extraordinary means, is not “smart”. It may not be, but then I’m not a civil engineer, nor hired to look at this problem (although FEMA did send me a letter today asking me to go to New Orleans to provide “emergency advising”, it was not with respect to the levees…).
Well, actually it can. And if not? A new home can be built on that spot. Unless you’re willing to give up your little slice of heaven, shut the fuck up and let these people attempt to normalize their lives. Have you ever lost EVERYTHING YOU OWN???
New Orleans will be rebuilt and will recover. They had been on the “fringes” of hurricanes before, but this one really headed directly at them. You can’t just say “fuck 'em for living in a dangerous place”. The northeast has blizzards, nor’easters, floods, and the occasional hurricane. The northwest has volcanoes. California has earthquakes and fires. The southeast has hurricanes, and the midwest has tornadoes and floods. No matter where you live, bad stuff can happen. You pick your own poison. You can’t just write people off.
Your posts are fun. It’s like a “How many asshole things can I get called on” thread.
How the fuck do you think suburbs are available as living areas? They are, ahem, suburbs. As in areas that are really extensions of urban areas. Your stupidity is so infectious I can’t even come up with suburban cities that wouldn’t exist without a major city to be a satellite of. And I have a Trucker’s Atlas next to me.
I’m going to kick my Pug. It’ll probably make more sense than reading your shit.
Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world’s first bionic man. duffer will be that man. Better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster.
Further, Katrina wasn’t a 500-year hurricane. See: Camille.
What is so difficult to understand here? I pity the poor bastards that were completely washed/blown away. I don’t want to condemn them to it again. I offered an alternative.
Your anger is so misplaced. I attibute part of that to those of you that are Scylla sycophants. The blind leading the deaf and dumb, as it were.
Whatever is left over I have to attribute to the fact that “status quo” is always easiest. But that doesn’t make it right, nor smart.
And, fianally, I guess I’ll respond to those of you that are seemingly incapable of understanding the typed word: Fuck off and shut up back atcha. You refuse to even try and understand what I’ve written, you offer no alternative (Una excepted), and are little other than gadflys. Dumb asses.
Um, they didn’t have a public aware of where the resources went. Are you comparing the current US economy/budget to the way things were run by the Pharoes and Chinese when building The Wall?
The tech available today?!? Yes, we can do many more things than those societies could, with one major difference. Well, actually many major differences.
Any contractor worth his salt could assemble a crew to put the Great Pyramid to shame in a few short months. The problems? Environmental groups, surveys, labor unions, materials bought on the open market, building permits, taxes, the list goes on.
Are you honestly comparing rebuilding a city in the US in 2005 to building a tomb or wall centuries ago?
I think that building levees that actually work (and are a bit higher) would seem to be the answer. Out of interest, the guys that built the current lot of levees (that don’t work) - did they build the levees deliberately to only withstand a cat 4 hurricane but not a cat 5, or is it just that they weren’t very good at building levees?
Is it not possible to build a dam that will withstand any amount of water thrown at it (within reason)? This storm pulled up a storm surge of 25 feet, and that was an extreme storm, so why not build a dam that can withstand a height of say 40 feet just to be safe? Is it not just a matter of putting more earth on top? We got loads of earth spare.
Jesus, just keep embarrassing yourself. First, right off the bat, the Pugs are female. Though I trust you don’t associate with many. And yes, I do actually kick them. You win on that one. :rolleyes:
I’ll admit it takes more time to locate Ricfield on a map than it does for you to confirm your asshatitude. Just keep in mind that I am very familiar with all locales in the Twin Cities area.
And you helped prove my point. Richfield is entirely dependant on Minneapolis and St Paul. Granted, if the city of Minneapolis is ever flooded, and the water is contained within the city, Richfield will be fine. But what does Richfield have going for it to be sustained without the Twin Cities?
Nothing you idiot. If Minneapolis and St Paul are ever wiped out, Richfield is a ghost town you moron. It’s a SUB-URB of the metro area. Yeah, if the water is polite, you keep your home. If the metro area is wiped out, there is no economy. Hence, no Richfield. Or at least not one any sane person would live in considering there would be no economic base to feed from. But you’re not sane, so I’m sure the home-fire would still burn.
How is that life looking now that you have to drive to St Cloud for work. Gonna bitch about the gas prices?
For those not familiar with the Twin Cities area, Richfield lies directly to the south of the city of Minneapolis. Bordered by I-494, and state highways 62 and 77. The city (A FUCKING SUBURB YOU IDIOT) is what this dick thinks can survive on it’s own. Take the major economy to Bemidji and let’s see how well you think a suburb can thrive on it’s own.
Coloring in the city with a black crayon? Only if you’re there and the blackout counts real life.
I’ll bet I can name your favorite football team, shit swizzle
Rarely do I post on this forum in a sitaution in which I agree with, but being slightly affected by this one (and by slightly, I mean 100%), I appreciate all of the ass raping you all are giving to these fuckers recommending we give up on my one of a kind city.
I can say “fuck them for being extremely stupid and expecting the rest of us to pay for their stupidity”. If you want to build or buy a house on the shore, within spitting distance of the beach, fine, go for it. Just don’t bitch when it disappears in the next major storm, and don’t expect the Corps of Engineers to waste millions of dollars on trying to hold back the sea.
With no sarcasm intended, I’m afraid I do not understand.