# Get-out-the-vote and voter suppression are not equally legitimate political tactics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2008, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089 "2008-10-22T18:03:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/21 "2008-10-22T19:50:56Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > For 28 years, the Democratic party had most of their numbers in stupid people, and the Republicans had most of their numbers in smart people. 😕 When was this supposed to be? And what’s your cite for it? ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/22 "2008-10-22T19:52:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. “What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.” > > I think there’s value in making the vote require some effort, some small sacrifice – something that never places it out of reach, but puts a price on it. Not a price paid vicariously, either; a personal price – time to stand in line at the polls, time to Xerox your license and mail it in, whatever. I don’t view these measures as inherently wrong. Maybe we could enact some kind of “tax” that potential voters would have to pay when they go to the “polls.” [Hmmm…](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_tax#Tax_on_voting) ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/23 "2008-10-22T20:18:37Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s like what happened back in 2000 in Florida, where the Democrats, who’s rallying cry was “count every vote”, did their best to disqualify millitary absentee ballots, and the Republicans, who had taken the position, “Hey, the rules are the rules, and if the people of Florida can’t figure out how to cast a ballot, tough for them” all of a sudden cared so much about our soldiers trying to vote in Florida having their views heard. Well, the Dems got nitpicky about the millitary absentee ballots in _response_ to Repubs nitpickily supressing minority ballots, there were far more of tha latter than the former, and in the end, the Republs got their way in both cases. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/24 "2008-10-22T21:35:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. “What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.” Bricker, is it your position that Thomas Payne, the author of the quote you cited, is in favor of Republican voter suppression tactics, or is that quote taken out of context? Of course the answer is that it was taken out of context, from Payne’s “The American Crisis”, which endeavored to give wavering Americans strength during the American Revolution. Throwing unnecessary and purely cumbersome roadblocks in people’s way as they register and attempt vote is hardly the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/25 "2008-10-22T21:44:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think there’s value in making the vote require some effort, some small sacrifice – something that never places it out of reach, but puts a price on it. Not a price paid vicariously, either; a personal price – time to stand in line at the polls, time to Xerox your license and mail it in, whatever. I don’t view these measures as inherently wrong. Even if this argument has merit, isn’t it a problem if the effort required is systematically different for different groups? I assume you would agree that it would be unacceptable if Hispanic voters disproportionately had to jump through an _extra_ hoop that others did not have to jump through, even if that hoop is a modest one (traveling to an election office an additional time). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/26 "2008-10-22T21:49:52Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Even if this argument has merit, isn’t it a problem if the effort required is systematically different for different groups? I assume you would agree that it would be unacceptable if Hispanic voters disproportionately had to jump through an _extra_ hoop that others did not have to jump through, even if that hoop is a modest one (traveling to an election office an additional time). If the extra effort is a function of poverty… then, quite frankly, no. (As long as the extra effort is legal on its face, of course). Poor people are not a protected class, and the reality of life is: everything’s harder if you’re poor. That fact doesn’t make a particular harder task wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/27 "2008-10-22T21:51:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > You’ve got to … make up your mind who you’re going to vote for I bet, for a lot of people, this takes the least time and effort. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/28 "2008-10-22T22:01:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If the extra effort is a function of poverty… then, quite frankly, no. (As long as the extra effort is legal on its face, of course). Poor people are not a protected class, and the reality of life is: everything’s harder if you’re poor. That fact doesn’t make a particular harder task wrong. Well, I’m not on board with that because I don’t think we should be making a protected class analysis here. But even putting that aside, let’s say it isn’t poverty. Let’s say it’s having a name that is likely to be spelled incorrectly (which is disproportionately non-whites). Is it OK to make that group disproportionately jump through extra hoops? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/29 "2008-10-22T22:09:27Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Well, I’m not on board with that because I don’t think we should be making a protected class analysis here. But even putting that aside, let’s say it isn’t poverty. Let’s say it’s having a name that is likely to be spelled incorrectly (which is disproportionately non-whites). Is it OK to make that group disproportionately jump through extra hoops? Well… yes. Because there really is a legitimate interest in making sure names are spelled correctly. I’m sorry, and I acknowledge that “JOHN MILLER” is easier than “RAILA ODINGA” for most elections officials. But I don’t see that as anything that would invalidate challenges. It’s not OK for a government agency to set out a scheme designed to make that group jump through hoops. It’s perfectly legitimate for a private actor to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/30 "2008-10-22T22:22:53Z")
There is a fine line between implementing a program intended to make it harder for a certain group to vote and implementing a program one knows is likely to have that result. I understand why we try to make that distinction as a matter of constitutional law, but I’m not sure that is the proper line to draw when evaluating whether a program ought to properly be labeled voter suppression. It seems to me that if we know a certain program will make it harder for a particular demographic to vote, we need some pretty good reasons for that program, and it needs to be narrowly-tailored to those reasons. That is especially true when the disproportionately-impacted group votes overwhelmingly for one party or the other. I don’t think speculative reasons, or programs that unnecessarily put the burden on the voter in order to save administrative costs would meet that standard. [I don’t know enough about the facts of the various voter suppression arguments being made about FL, MI, and OH to say whether these programs address compelling problems and are narrowly-tailored.] ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/31 "2008-10-22T22:27:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not OK for a government agency to set out a scheme designed to make that group jump through hoops. It’s perfectly legitimate for a private actor to do it. Last I checked, the government ran elections, not Diebold or ACORN (for example). ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/32 "2008-10-22T22:57:59Z")
To some degree, I agree with Bricker. I don’t like the idea of massively turning out voters that otherwise don’t care. Either they cast votes on a whim, or else they get exploited. Neither is good for the country. Some scenarios that I think fall into those categories are: 1. Providing busing to senior housing in order to get them to vote against school bond issues. 2. Or vice versa, having the ballot for a school bond on school ground, and rounding up all the 18 year old students to vote for it. Are either of those legal? Yes. But they are exploitive. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/33 "2008-10-22T23:00:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If the extra effort is a function of poverty… then, quite frankly, no. (As long as the extra effort is legal on its face, of course). Poor people are not a protected class, and the reality of life is: everything’s harder if you’re poor. That fact doesn’t make a particular harder task wrong. As the noted political philosopher Will Rogers once remarked: “Its not a crime to be poor in America, but it might as well be.” But your mournful acceptance of immortal truth falls on deaf ears. The efforts to suppress the votes of the poor and minority voters are not a shrugging submission to the inevitable, but a positive effort to make it so. The fingerprints on the candlestick, in the library, are not God’s, nor are they Adam Smith’s, they belong to the party you support. At one remove, they are \*your \*fingerprints, sir. Cynicism is the stench a soul gives off when it rots. And the answer to Cain’s question is yes, yes you are your brother’s keeper, and if you fail in that nothing else you do will make up for it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/34 "2008-10-22T23:10:49Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > 1. Or vice versa, having the ballot for a school bond on school ground, and rounding up all the 18 year old students to vote for it. There was a school bond up in 2006 in Virginia, when I was a senior in high school. I voted against it because I didn’t think it was a good idea, though I wasn’t bothered that it passed. Students aren’t necessarily going to vote to give their schools more money. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/35 "2008-10-22T23:12:40Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > To some degree, I agree with Bricker. > > I don’t like the idea of massively turning out voters that otherwise don’t care. Either they cast votes on a whim, or else they get exploited. Neither is good for the country. > > Some scenarios that I think fall into those categories are: > > 1. Providing busing to senior housing in order to get them to vote against school bond issues. > 2. Or vice versa, having the ballot for a school bond on school ground, and rounding up all the 18 year old students to vote for it. > > Are either of those legal? Yes. But they are exploitive. I second that. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/36 "2008-10-22T23:21:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And the answer to Cain’s question is yes, yes you are your brother’s keeper, and if you fail in that nothing else you do will make up for it. And I, for one, respect my brother enough to want to protect his vote and not have it negated by a fraudulent one. Also, in an election we want the best outcome. How does it help ensure the best outcome to round-up votes from those ignorant of the issues? If I have a medical problem I might seek the advice of several doctors. Adding the hospital janitor or accountant to that list is not helpful. In short, anyone who is qualified to vote and wants to should be able to do so. And can. At the same time, systems are put in place to make sure that the final tally matches how the populace actually voted. If that causes some of us a little extra hassle or the unbearable pain of having to wait until out information is verified, suck it up. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/37 "2008-10-22T23:25:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Also, in an election we wan the best outcome. How does it help ensure the best outcome to round-up votes from those ignorant of the issues? Democracy is not about most informed outcomes, it is about most just outcomes. If we wanted the most informed outcome we would validly have tests for basic knowledge of the issues. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/38 "2008-10-22T23:39:59Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Democracy is not about most informed outcomes, it is about most just outcomes. If we wanted the most informed outcome we would validly have tests for basic knowledge of the issues. You state the obvious. But the point is that it is kinda dumb of us _to encourage_ people to vote who are uninformed. They have the right, and let them exercise it if they wish. If they’d rather spend the day sniffing glue or watching reruns of game shows with bated breath, why ruin their fun? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/39 "2008-10-22T23:45:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You state the obvious. But the point is that it is kinda dumb of us _to encourage_ people to vote who are uninformed. They have the right, and let them exercise it if they wish. If they’d rather spend the day sniffing glue or watching reruns of game shows with bated breath, why ruin their fun? I may have stated the obvious, but it was in direct contradiction to what you wrote. You stated the goal is the best outcome. But it isn’t. If it were, we would have all kinds of policies that we find repellent because the real goal is just representation. In any case, we’re not arguing about whether we should force glue sniffers to vote. We’re arguing about whether it’s a problem to make it harder for certain classes of people to vote through no fault of their own. If it’s harder for you to vote because you have a Vietnamese last name, I find that problematic. And I think we should only make it harder for you if we have a very good reason and when there’s no other option. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/40 "2008-10-22T23:46:49Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You state the obvious. But the point is that it is kinda dumb of us _to encourage_ people to vote who are uninformed. They have the right, and let them exercise it if they wish. If they’d rather spend the day sniffing glue or watching reruns of game shows with bated breath, why ruin their fun? Would you say people who cast their vote based on single issues such as gay marriage, abortion, who’s a Christian or a Muslim, etc are informed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089.md?page=3)