# Get-out-the-vote and voter suppression are not equally legitimate political tactics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2008, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089 "2008-10-22T18:03:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/61 "2008-10-23T12:57:48Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Agreed… but attempting to suppress illegal votes is a legitimate tactic. Not when it is used as a pretext to suppress lawfully eligible votes. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/62 "2008-10-23T13:21:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Unfortunately, yes. People can place their priorities wherever they’d like. And uninformed voters are rampant in both parties and encouraged to register and vote. > [@](#): > > I’m less interested in removing minor obstacles than heightening their interest. The obstacles discussed in this thread make it _more_ difficult, but it still way shy of _difficult_. If the point is to make it more difficult for a particular group then it becomes something other than protecting the our elections. > [@](#): > > Well false accusations an dishonesty are never good. The Republican guy that got caught lately should be made an example of. But I also feel that ACORN is gaming the system by playing a numbers game, and that some of the higher-ups there need to be similarly placed in the stocks. I’m not fond of the problems that their methods have exacerbated but I also feel some problems are inherent in the system. A massive voter registration drive will yield a percentage of bogus forms. The serious question seems to be whether there was ever any intent of voting fraud. Obviously Micky Mouse wasn’t going to vote. If the law is that you must turn in all voter registrations you gather no matter how ridiculous , and Acorn is flagging the questionable ones, then they’re doing their job. I do think they have a responsibility to get rid of employees who turn in bogus registrations and to try and create a system that doesn’t create unnecessary work for the the folks at voter registration. The numbers game seems to be that they are willing to tolerate all the reported problems in order to register 10s of thousands of legitimate voters. We’ll see how the investigations pan out. It was an eye opener to me to discover that the firing scandal within the justice department was linked to this. Investigate, find no problem, or no evidence to even warrant an investigation and you’re fired. My problem with this is there have been questions about voter suppression , rigged voting machines etc. for several elections now. The stories were downplayed and largely ignored. Now suddenly, with the GOP in serious trouble, ACORN gets all this attention and they begin another round of guilt by association. Seems like an obvious bias to me. I’m all for checking things out to protect our elections. Let’s make sure we’re addressing all the issues with equal vigor. Meanwhile McCain hires a firm headed by Nathan Sproul who has been accused in several states of voter suppression and throwing away Democratic registrations. What does that say about his sincerity in protecting democracy? ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/63 "2008-10-23T13:59:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not when it is used as a pretext to suppress lawfully eligible votes. Oh nobody wants to do any pretexting, I’m sure. If the evidence shows that your opponents friends are rounding up as many voters as they can with little concern for lawfullness and eligability, is that good enough reason to look closer at voters to make sure they are lawful and eligable? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/64 "2008-10-23T14:17:32Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Oh nobody wants to do any pretexting, I’m sure. > > If the evidence shows that your opponents friends are rounding up as many voters as they can with little concern for lawfullness and eligability, is that good enough reason to look closer at voters to make sure they are lawful and eligable? I have a couple of friends who are Canadian citizens but have lived in the US for decades. It seems to me if they registered and voted chances are nobody would question it. Isn’t it also true that if someone did question it they would be breaking some serious laws? It occurs to me that it’s much more likely that legitimate voters would be discouraged since that is much harder to prove and prosecute, than bogus voters would risk a serious crime to cast a vote. Only guessing though. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/65 "2008-10-23T14:27:25Z")
**magellan01** , **elucidator** asked you a question. I too would like to hear an explanation. How is it that you know of Acorn’s nefarious plans? Or are these accusations made from pure paranoia? (or maybe a grasp at a rationale for supporting something truley tasteless) ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/66 "2008-10-23T14:53:59Z")
I thought this might be of interest here. It’s about an ACORN worker who actually went to jail for fraudulent registrations that he, and his fellow canvassers, submitted on their own volition, but the quotes below from law professor Eric Schnapper and the Brennan Center for Justice are what I find most relevant. > **[Ex-ACORN worker: 'I paid the price' for voter registration fraud - CNN.com](https://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/22/voter.fraud/index.html?iref=topnews)** > > Clifton Mitchell helped register nearly 2,000 voters for the community group ACORN. But not one of them actually existed. > [@](#): > > [1] Schnapper said he’s worked on Republican and Democratic campaigns and has paid people to hand out leaflets or register voters. He said some of the workers do their jobs and some don’t. > > ACORN said it has registered well more than 1 million voters, most of them Democrats. Though the group is under investigation in a number of swing states, such as Ohio and Nevada, amid accusations that it turned in fake voter registration cards, **Schnapper said there’s no evidence that any worker intended to commit voter fraud and actually take those names, produce phony identification and vote on Election Day**. > > Threats of criminal prosecution may scare some groups into closing voter registration drives, according to Schnapper. It could scare actual voters away from the polls as well, he said, “and that really does affect the outcomes of the election.” > [@](#): > > [2] A report from the nonpartisan Brennan Center for Justice at the New York University Law School supports his claim. Researchers reviewed \*\*voter fraud claims \*\*across the country and found that **most were caused by technical glitches, clerical errors or mistakes made by voters**. One other finding: **A person is more likely to be struck by lightning than to impersonate another voter at the polls**. [emphasis mine] Bets on how quickly those are handwaved away. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/67 "2008-10-23T15:34:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well… yes. > > Because there really is a legitimate interest in making sure names are spelled correctly. I’m sorry, and I acknowledge that “JOHN MILLER” is easier than “RAILA ODINGA” for most elections officials. But I don’t see that as anything that would invalidate challenges. > > It’s not OK for a government agency to set out a scheme designed to make that group jump through hoops. It’s perfectly legitimate for a private actor to do it. So tell me, why not make John miller jump through those hoops too to be fair? Or is not having a WASP name a crime deserving of punishment in America? Or is it being fair might suppress republican voters? Quite frankly republicans setting out a scheme to suppress minority voters makes them racist scum. Enjoy your KKK party. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/68 "2008-10-23T15:41:52Z")
> [@5-4-Fighting](#): > > I thought this might be of interest here. It’s about an ACORN worker who actually went to jail for fraudulent registrations that he, and his fellow canvassers, submitted on their own volition, but the quotes below from law professor Eric Schnapper and the Brennan Center for Justice are what I find most relevant. > > [Ex-ACORN worker: 'I paid the price' for voter registration fraud - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/22/voter.fraud/index.html?iref=topnews) > > [emphasis mine] > > Bets on how quickly those are handwaved away. Does it constitute handwaving to point out that the Brennan Center was the plaintiff in the lawsuit about Florida’s voter registration process, and that they lost. You characterize them as “non-partisan” and that’s probably a defensible claim in the sense of lacking official affiliation with a political party – but they were a party to the precise lawsuit whose dismissal gave rise to this issue. ---
**Author:** ![parthenokinesis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/cc9497/32.png) [@parthenokinesis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/parthenokinesis)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/69 "2008-10-23T15:58:15Z")
I think we’re going about this all wrong. We need to start suppressing votes on the electoral college level. A simple bird flu scare could put a quarantine on Hawaii, on Dec 12th or so, keeping their delegates from appearing. Also, they could use a ballot that only had like a 2 inch line for the name of the state, then disqualify votes because they did not fill in the name “State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations”. I realize that’s only 7 electoral votes so far, but in a close race, it could be significant. Now about New York… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/70 "2008-10-23T16:02:46Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > So tell me, why not make John miller jump through those hoops too to be fair? Or is not having a WASP name a crime deserving of punishment in America? My own name is Spanish, and contains a letter that doesn’t exist in the English alphabet. Somehow, I survive. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/71 "2008-10-23T16:08:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My own name is Spanish, and contains a letter that doesn’t exist in the English alphabet. > > Somehow, I survive. You a very special snow flake. However you didn’t answer my question. Why isn’t a policy designed to target minorities for harassment morally and ethically reprehensible? ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/72 "2008-10-23T16:23:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You characterize them as “non-partisan” and that’s probably a defensible claim . . . . _I_ don’t characterize them as anything. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/73 "2008-10-23T16:44:41Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > You a very special snow flake. > However you didn’t answer my question. Why isn’t a policy designed to target minorities for harassment morally and ethically reprehensible? Which policy, specifically, are we talking about here? Any policy that is designed to single out only ethnic minorities for harrassment is morally and ethically bereft, yes. Now, which policy specifically does that? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/74 "2008-10-23T16:46:50Z")
> [@5-4-Fighting](#): > > _I_ don’t characterize them as anything. You provided a cite which characterized them as non-partisan. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/75 "2008-10-23T16:56:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You provided a cite which characterized them as non-partisan. Thanks for admitting I didn’t characterize them as such. Not only would you see, if you actually clicked on the link I included, that Chris Lawrence, not I, wrote that article, but reading my post would show that my inclusion of those two quotes was to highlight something specific and more important. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/76 "2008-10-23T17:28:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Which policy, specifically, are we talking about here? > > Any policy that is designed to single out only ethnic minorities for harrassment is morally and ethically bereft, yes. > > Now, which policy specifically does that? [http://www.marshallnewsmessenger.com/hp/content/shared/news/stories/2008/10/VOTING\_PROBLEMS21\_COX.html](http://www.marshallnewsmessenger.com/hp/content/shared/news/stories/2008/10/VOTING_PROBLEMS21_COX.html) > [@](#): > > “This is disenfranchisement by typo,” Michael Waldman told reporters here Monday. Waldman is executive director of the Brennan Center, which specializes in voting rights and election practices and is one of several parties challenging Florida’s so-called “no match, no vote” law, contending that it has kept off the rolls more than 9,000 voters. > [@](#): > > In that state, also, a no-match, no-vote provision has led to legal challenge, after the Ohio Republican Party sought a list of more than 200,000 new voters whose registration information was not a perfect match with records in the state data base. Also Republicans where the ones who put the “perfect match” thingy into law. Minorities tend to have names that are more difficult to spell then Anglo-Saxon names. Heck on some government records my two middle names are hyphenated and some not, and some just have one of my middle names. I may have to fight to have my vote counted, if I can get it counted at all, because of that. That fair and just to you? Am I not “American” enough for you because I have two middle names? oh to be amerdecan and have one middle name… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/77 "2008-10-23T17:36:53Z")
> [@5-4-Fighting](#): > > Thanks for admitting I didn’t characterize them as such. Not only would you see, if you actually clicked on the link I included, that Chris Lawrence, not I, wrote that article, but reading my post would show that my inclusion of those two quotes was to highlight something specific and more important. OK – my usual assumption when someone offers up a cite is that, unless context makes it clear otherwise, they’re endorsing the claims made by the cite. But I’m perfectly willing to correct both the record and my assumption. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/78 "2008-10-23T17:37:55Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Also Republicans where the ones who put the “perfect match” thingy into law. > > Minorities tend to have names that are more difficult to spell then Anglo-Saxon names. And where is it, exactly, that perfect matches on names are required? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/79 "2008-10-23T17:45:06Z")
**Bricker** asks: > [@](#): > > And where is it, exactly, that perfect matches on names are required? > [@](#): > > You may ask who’s stealing your votes. Palast and Kennedy believe that the Help America Vote Act (HAVA), created in 2002, is one of the main reasons votes are systematically being stolen. Secretaries of state attempting to comply with HAVA are purging voters from the registration rolls and blocking new ones from registering. The purging occurs if a voter’s name does not match a government database. > > … > In 2006, Palast says that 40 percent of citizens who were purged from the voter rolls in California had Islamic, Vietnamese, Chinese and Hispanic names. These names were at most risk for misspellings. [http://www.truthout.org/101408R](http://www.truthout.org/101408R) Greg Palast has made the accusation in many others articles, and in his book **Armed Madhouse** as well. > [@](#): > > Our investigations team talked to some of New Mexico’s allegedly illegal voters. > > In 2004, the Catholic Church organized a bus and caravan to take newly registered Chicano “low-riders” to a Roswell, New Mexico polling station. The white officials turned away several of the young Hispanics for presenting the wrong ID. Maybe the middle initial on the voter form was missing from the driver’s license, or “Jr.” was added. No perfect match, no vote: a gotcha! set of rules that seemed to apply only to voters of a darker hue. > > One of the rejected young Chicanas said she wouldn’t return to try again to vote; one round of humiliation was enough. “They don’t want me to vote there anyway,” she said. And they don’t. > > But hey, what’s wrong with requiring voter ID? I’ll give you a million reasons. Since 2004, when 300,000 citizens lost their right to vote because of ID challenges, the number of states that have passed voter ID laws has quadrupled. Expect the challenges to quadruple as well, to over a million in the upcoming 2008 presidential election. Does ID challenges make a difference? In New Mexico, George Bush’s victory over John Kerry by 5,900 votes can be completely accounted for by minority provisional ballots rejected. ID was the key. > **[Space Invaders: Five Million Aliens for Hillary - Greg Palast](https://www.gregpalast.com/space-invaders-five-million-aliens-for-hillary/)** > > Will José Crow Voter ID Laws Pick Our President? State Representative Russell Pearce of Mesa Arizona has warned us ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/80 "2008-10-23T17:51:02Z")
Here’s a non-Palast cite: [http://www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/story/679629.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/story/679629.html) > [@](#): > > ‘No match, no vote’ law to be enforced > A controversial voter registration law that requires Floridians to have their identification match up with a state or federal database will be enforced. > BY MARY ELLEN KLAS > [meklas@MiamiHerald.com](mailto:meklas@MiamiHerald.com) > TALLAHASSEE – State elections officials will resume enforcement of a controversial state law that requires Floridians to have their identification match up with a state or federal database in order to register to vote. > > Secretary of State Kurt Browning sent notice to the state’s 67 supervisors of elections on Friday that the 2006 law, which has been on hold for the last year pending court rulings, would take effect again Sept. 8. > > The result is that voters whose identification doesn’t match with state files on Election Day will be given a provisional ballot and two days to prove their identity for their ballot to count. > > Voting rights activists, who had unsuccessfully challenged the constitutionality of the law, blasted the decision, saying it allows the state to rely on what they consider error-prone databases in the month before voter registration ends on Oct. 6. > > ``This 11th-hour decision is an ill-advised move to apply a policy the state has never enforced in its current form, at a time when registration activity is at its highest, said Alvaro Fernandez of the Southwest Voter Registration and Education Project, a plaintiff in the case along with the NAACP and the Haitian-American Grassroots Coalition. > > Browning acknowledged that the court case prompted the state to make changes to its voter match process during the 2008 legislative session but he said the voting rights proponents are now being sore losers. > > ‘‘They just don’t want to admit the system might just work’’ so they are ‘‘loose with the facts,’’ he said. > > For example, their claim that Florida could "disenfranchise tens of thousands’’ is irresponsible, he said. “What basis do they have that its thousands? How do they know it’s not millions?” > > The law, passed by the Republican-led legislature in 2005, requires Floridians registering to vote to supply a drivers license number or the last four digits of their social security number. Proponents of the law say it was needed to prevent voter fraud. > > Election officials try to match the would-be voter’s information with state and federal databases. If there is no match, the applicant is asked to provide more information. > > This year, the legislature changed the law, requiring county elections officials to scan all voter registration applications. Any that don’t match will be quickly reviewed by the Bureau of Voter Registration. If there are no typographical errors or other obvious problems, counties will ask voters for more information. > > **Elizabeth Westfall, senior attorney with the Washington, D.C.-based Advancement Project, a civil rights group, said that when the law was in effect in 2006 and 2007, it disproportionately excluded Latino and African American voters who often had double last names that often didn’t register accurately in the data files.** > > The civil rights groups sued the state in September 2007, won an injunction in December and the state won a reversal on appeal in June in federal district court in Atlanta. The ruling became final on July 28 and was not enforced during registration for the Aug. 26 primary. > > Westfall says to enforce the law now “creates quite a bit of chaos and needless disenfranchisement.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089.md?page=5)