# Get-out-the-vote and voter suppression are not equally legitimate political tactics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2008, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089 "2008-10-22T18:03:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/81 "2008-10-23T17:58:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Many will fail to match through no fault of their own. In fact, state election officials in Wisconsin tested out the “no match no vote” rule on their own registrations. Four of its six members’ names failed to check when the members’ names were run through new voter identification system as a test. (for a match). **More than half of the state Government Accountability Board’s members failed when their names were run through new voter identification checks as a test**. [http://blackboxvoting.com/s9/index.php?/plugin/tag/voter+caging](http://blackboxvoting.com/s9/index.php?/plugin/tag/voter+caging) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/82 "2008-10-23T18:04:22Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Heck on some government records my two middle names are hyphenated and some not, and some just have one of my middle names. > > I may have to fight to have my vote counted, if I can get it counted at all, because of that. That fair and just to you? Am I not “American” enough for you because I have two middle names? Since **CalMeacham** has graciously answered you on my behalf **Bricker** I assume you’ll be able to answer that one. Please explain to me why I should be harassed for having two middle names ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/83 "2008-10-23T18:13:40Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Here’s a non-Palast cite: > > [http://www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/story/679629.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/story/679629.html) But it says “identification.” It doesn’t say “names.” ANd that’s key, because Florida law says they must compare driver’s license NUMBERS, Florida ID card NUMBERS, or the last four NUMBERS of the voter’s Social Security NUMBER. So no one is talking about exact matches of names in Florida. They’re talking about exact matches of NUMBERS. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/84 "2008-10-23T18:15:02Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Since **CalMeacham** has graciously answered you on my behalf **Bricker** I assume you’ll be able to answer that one. > > Please explain to me why I should be harassed for having two middle names Yes. Answered. The fact that you’re a two-middle-name-freak (which I mean in the nicest possible way) is irrelevant, unless that someone caused the numbers on your driver’s license or social security card to morph. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/85 "2008-10-23T18:25:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So no one is talking about exact matches of names in Florida. They’re talking about exact matches of NUMBERS. What are you talking about??? You and I both know that they’re not just checking the number you put down, they’re making sure the number you put down matches the number in the database entry for the name you put down. Explain to all of us exactly how you can “compare” the last 4 digits of a social security number for accuracy, if there isn’t a name comparison as well. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/86 "2008-10-23T18:33:58Z")
Yo, **Bricker** , while you’re here… > [@moi](#): > > Say there’s a polling place where the voters are heavily elderly, wealthy, white, and Republican. > > If I were to round up a group of large, tattooed, scary-looking young men, and have them hang out in front of this polling place on election day, behaving as young men are wont to do, though legally, would you find that unacceptable? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/87 "2008-10-23T18:37:27Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > What are you talking about??? You and I both know that they’re not just checking the number you put down, they’re making sure the number you put down matches the number in the database entry for the name you put down. > > Explain to all of us exactly how you can “compare” the last 4 digits of a social security number for accuracy, if there isn’t a name comparison as well. There is a name comparison. But there’s no requirement for the name to exactly match. Indeed, the procedures manual directs staff to search the system by the number provided by the applicant and according to the applicant’s name and any possible variants of the applicant’s name. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/88 "2008-10-23T18:47:09Z")
> [@](#): > > But it says “identification.” It doesn’t say “names.” > > ANd that’s key, because Florida law says they must compare driver’s license NUMBERS, Florida ID card NUMBERS, or the last four NUMBERS of the voter’s Social Security NUMBER. > > So no one is talking about exact matches of names in Florida. They’re talking about exact matches of NUMBERS. > [@](#): > > As ABC News notes, most states will allow you to still vote if you present an ID at the polls. But not in Louisiana and South Dakota. **And in Florida, the ID you bring must exactly match what’s on the voter list, meaning the possibility for error is huge: in 2006, 13,000 voters were knocked off the lists, and more in 2007.** And that’s just using numbers [http://southernstudies.org/facingsouth/2008/09/voting-rights-watch-why-floridas-new.asp](http://southernstudies.org/facingsouth/2008/09/voting-rights-watch-why-floridas-new.asp) > [@](#): > > There is a name comparison. But there’s no requirement for the name to exactly match. Depends where you are. In New Mexico, it apparently can. From my earlier cite: > [@](#): > > In 2004, the Catholic Church organized a bus and caravan to take newly registered Chicano “low-riders” to a Roswell, New Mexico polling station. The white officials turned away several of the young Hispanics for presenting the wrong ID. Maybe the middle initial on the voter form was missing from the driver’s license, or “Jr.” was added. No perfect match, no vote ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/89 "2008-10-23T19:13:42Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > As I said earlier, I’m unfamiliar with the facts in FL. I thought what was happening there was that, when you go to vote, if your name doesn’t match what they have, you have to go back in and verify your ID. That’s not right? Can you explain what is happening at the polling place that creates the need for the voter to return with ID? No, that’s not right. The voter registration record comes in, bearing a number (last four of SSN, or DL/ID number). The automated system classifies it as matching, possibly matching, or not matching. The classified as possibly matched or unmatched are transmitted electronically to staff for individual review. Staff members doing the review have access to DHSMV’s database, known as the Driver and Vehicle Information Database (“DAVID”). Personnel are instructed to make every possible attempt—using DAVID and other resources—to resolve a record that was possibly matched or unmatched. The procedures manual directs staff to search the DAVID system by the number provided by the applicant and according to the applicant’s name and any possible variants of the applicant’s name. In reviewing the registration records, staff have access to a scanned image of the original application, as submitted by the voter registrant. If staff is able to verify a record returned to it by DHSMV, the applicant to whom the record relates becomes an active voter. The appropriate Supervisor is notified electronically through FVRS to process a voter information card. If BVRS is unable to verify a record returned to it by DHSMV, the record is sent to the appropriate Supervisor for local investigation and further action. The reason that the record is unverified may be because there was a typographical error in the data entry, or because the applicant made a mistake when filling out the voter registration application. For the information of the Supervisors, BVRS enters individualized comments into a comment field associated with each record it investigates and returns. In addition, BVRS maintains an e-mail account to assist Supervisors with any questions, including questions about specific applicants. A BVRS staff member reviews inquiries from the Supervisors and either provides answers or, if unable to do so, forwards the inquiry to the proper person. BVRS also provides assistance to staff members by telephone. (From the opinion upholding the procedure). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/90 "2008-10-23T19:21:30Z")
These cites are extremely deceptive. Here’s the ABC news language: > [@](#): > > Defenders of the system say that voters who believe they were wrongly excluded can make their case. But as ABC News points out, the process is so laborious that most will probably end up confused and not voting. Here’s what a voter has to do in Florida: > > ``` > Beginning Sept. 8, new registration applicants who fail a HAVA match must mail a copy or bring a hard copy of their ID to an election office before Nov. 4 to show that the ID number on their registration application is correct. Officials plan to send a letter to such voters explaining what to do. Voters who forget or never receive instructions can cast a provisional ballot on Election Day, but it will be counted only if they bring or send a copy of their ID to an election office within 48 hours. ID presented at the poll will not be accepted, which could create confusion since Florida law already requires everyone to show ID at the polls. > > ``` But they never explain that “fail a HAVA match” means the numbers on their driver’s license don’t match the numbers they claimed for their driver’s license on their voter registration form. It sounds so arbitrary, with all the discussion about mismatch of names… but what’s being “exact matched” in Florida is ID numbers. Which SHOULD exactly match. So it seems to me that opponents of this process are making, if not outright false claims, certainly deceptive claims. An ordinary reader of the piece leaves believing that there’s a danger of a slight mispelling of a name causing a problem. In reality, that’s just not so. So why do the resort to the lies? I suspect it’s because the public would have no problem with the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/91 "2008-10-23T19:37:26Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > For 28 years, the Democratic party had most of their numbers in stupid people, and the Republicans had most of their numbers in smart people. I’m still hoping for an answer on this, because I’m really curious. What 28-year period was this? Did it roughly coincide with Reconstruction? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/92 "2008-10-23T19:42:56Z")
> [@](#): > > The state released the database to news organizations and advocacy groups that sought it under Florida’s public records laws. > > The law, labeled as “no match, no vote” by its critics, was enacted by the Legislature three years ago, suspended during a lengthy lawsuit and implemented Sept. 8 after a federal judge upheld the law. > > The law requires that new voters provide a driver’s license number or the last four digits of a Social Security number on a registration form, which is cross-checked against government databases. **If the numbers _or the name_ doesn’t match, the voter is placed in limbo while county elections supervisors resolve the discrepancies**. [http://tampabay.com/news/politics/state/article858377.ece](http://tampabay.com/news/politics/state/article858377.ece) > [@](#): > > **Under the so-called Help America Vote Act, almost every state can demand a “perfect match” between a voter’s identification and every other government record for that person - right down to precisely spelled name, address, and misplaced hyphens**. According to the Brennan Center for Justice, as many as 20 percent of New York driver’s licenses have typing errors disqualifying voters. In California, a Republican Secretary of State blocked 43 percent of all new voters in Los Angeles in 2006 for failure of a “perfect match.” In Florida, in 2006 and 2007, more than 15,000 new registrants were blocked by imperfect matches, three-fourth of which were Hispanic or black. [http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/10/18-0](http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/10/18-0) Names invariably have to be part of the match – nobody goes simply by numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/93 "2008-10-23T19:45:45Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > [http://tampabay.com/news/politics/state/article858377.ece](http://tampabay.com/news/politics/state/article858377.ece) > > [http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/10/18-0](http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/10/18-0) > > Names invariably have to be part of the match – nobody goes simply by numbers. Yes. But the voter never sees that process. If the name doesn’t match, as I explained above, the entries classified as possibly matched or unmatched are not denied; they’re transmitted electronically to staff for individual review. Staff members doing the review have access to DHSMV’s database, known as the Driver and Vehicle Information Database (“DAVID”). Personnel are instructed to make every possible attempt—using DAVID and other resources—to resolve a record that was possibly matched or unmatched. The procedures manual directs staff to search the DAVID system by the number provided by the applicant and according to the applicant’s name and any possible variants of the applicant’s name. In reviewing the registration records, staff have access to a scanned image of the original application, as submitted by the voter registrant. So what’s wrong with that? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/94 "2008-10-23T19:46:32Z")
The truth? You can handle the truth, and with perfect aplomb. The truth is that this is a drastic cure in search of a disease. The truth, as you’ve already admitted, is that this is a legalistic mechanism to legitimize a suppression of voters that Republcians cannot trust. The truth is that the Forces of Darkness have no scruples worthy of the name, that they will grasp for power by any means. I know the truth, and it makes me angry. You know the truth as well, and it ought to at least make you ashamed. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/95 "2008-10-23T19:48:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The truth? You can handle the truth, and with perfect aplomb. The truth is that this is a drastic cure in search of a disease. The truth, as you’ve already admitted, is that this is a legalistic mechanism to legitimize a suppression of voters that Republcians cannot trust. The truth is that the Forces of Darkness have no scruples worthy of the name, that they will grasp for power by any means. > > I know the truth, and it makes me angry. You know the truth as well, and it ought to at least make you ashamed. The truth is apparently that my opponents in this discussion expect me to admit the truths about my side, even when they make my side look less than wholesome – which I have done – while they are free to mischaracterize the facts as long as it helps along the greater good. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/96 "2008-10-23T19:52:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The truth is apparently that my opponents in this discussion expect me to admit the truths about my side, even when they make my side look less than wholesome – which I have done – while they are free to mischaracterize the facts as long as it helps along the greater good. The debate is not about facts, it is about principles. In the Pit thread linked in the OP you asserted that, absent actual illegal conduct, working to suppress the other side’s voter turnout is as legitimate a political tactic as working to maximize your own side’s. You have yet to make any reasonable argument for that preposterous position, in that thread or this. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/97 "2008-10-23T20:06:17Z")
> [@](#): > > So what’s wrong with that? I’m not familiar with the current procedures (or possible pitfalls) of the current act – most of the cites actually refer to previous elections, and we have a new system in place now. But ACLU thinks there are great opportunities for abuse. Unfortunately, they don’t elaborate on exactly how: [http://www.aclufl.org/issues/voting\_rights/nomatch.cfm](http://www.aclufl.org/issues/voting_rights/nomatch.cfm) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/98 "2008-10-23T20:18:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The truth is apparently that my opponents in this discussion expect me to admit the truths about my side, even when they make my side look less than wholesome – which I have done – while they are free to mischaracterize the facts as long as it helps along the greater good. They are, with your willing assistance, subverting and corrupting the core principle of democracy: the vote. And in a droll turn of phrase, you characterize this as “less than wholesome”. Actually, you say “look less than wholesome”, as if this were merely an _appearance_ of political rotteness, rather than its pure essence. Tell me, counselor, would you characterize feeding puppies into a blender as “not very nice”? I don’t begrudge you your intellectual gifts, I begrudge the purposes to which you prostitute them. I thought better of you than this, I will adjust accordingly, albeit reluctantly. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/99 "2008-10-23T20:48:31Z")
Hmmm – there appears to be ample opportunity for screwups, even with just numbers: > [@](#): > > The law at issue bars any Florida citizen from becoming registered to vote and voting with a regular ballot if the state cannot validate the applicant’s driver’s license number or the last four digits of the applicant’s Social Security number, no matter how much identification the voter brings to the polls on Election Day. The process starts with an attempt to “match” voter information to other government databases, an error-prone exercise that often fails. \*\*For example, the Social Security Administration reports a 46% failure rate when trying to match voter registration applications. State officials admitted in a recent challenge to the law, Florida NAACP v. Browning, that typographical errors by election workers are responsible for most of the failures. \*\* > > If the state cannot match the voter registration records, many eligible voters who submit registration applications before the October 6th deadline to register may not be notified of the matching failure until Election Day, when they appear at the polls to vote. There, they will be forced to cast a provisional ballot, and that provisional ballot will only be counted if the voter submits a photocopy of his or her driver’s license or Social Security card within 48 hours after the election, even if they already showed their driver’s license at the polls. > > “The most senseless part is that the state creates these errors, and then makes it unnecessarily hard to fix the problem,” said Myrna Pérez of the Brennan Center. “If the state insists on enforcing this misguided matching provision, it should at least make it possible for voters to show their driver’s license at the poll and validate their registration then and there. To have registered, brought your ID to the polls, and still be told you can’t vote – all because of a bureaucratic error – is ridiculous.” [http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/florida\_to\_enforce\_restrictive\_no\_match\_no\_vote/](http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/florida_to_enforce_restrictive_no_match_no_vote/) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089/100 "2008-10-23T20:49:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The debate is not about facts, it is about principles. In the Pit thread linked in the OP you asserted that, absent actual illegal conduct, working to suppress the other side’s voter turnout is as legitimate a political tactic as working to maximize your own side’s. You have yet to make any reasonable argument for that preposterous position, in that thread or this. I don’t really know what facts one might marshal to support (or rebut) that proposition, except to point out that votes are fungible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-out-the-vote-and-voter-suppression-are-not-equally-legitimate-political-tactics/469089.md?page=6)