# Get the Truth Out on Autism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 22, 2007, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515 "2007-09-22T23:14:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![foresam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3bc359/32.png) [@foresam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foresam)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/201 "2007-09-28T08:16:34Z")
KGS, If they expect me to pay them to continue my association here after my free 30 days are up, they should not limit duscussion of things that are harmful to autistic children. I think my question is legitimate. I asked in an email and got no response so I asked it here. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/202 "2007-09-28T08:30:21Z")
[QUOTE=ConcernedParent] That doesn’t surprise me in the least. But, for goodness sake, please don’t let your friend know about the online Aspie quizzes, otherwise he might join Aspies For Freedom and get the idea that he and his kind might one day be wiped out by the **evil** Neurotypicals! In the event of a cure being found and forced upon them, some members have already considered arming themselves. :eek: They feel they need to protect their superior genes! [/QUOTE] Sorry, I should have included a whole batch of rolleyes. Neither my friend nor any of the hundreds of nerds I know who are perfectly happy to call ourselves nerds have any interest in being called autistic. And if you’ve been with a woman for ten years and she _suddenly_ decides that because you (a computer programmer and single child born of two single children) don’t have much to talk about with her dozens of farmer siblings and cousins, you need fixing… damnit, but she should have thought about it years before! Those online self tests, like your list, would call ANY engineer ever an “autistic lite.” I find this stupid, bothersome for us engineers (who are suddenly at risk of being “fixed”, my mother spent my childhood and my engibrother’s trying to fix us already and thanks but no thanks), and demeaning for those who actually need help, like your kid. Sort of like the difference between having the blues and endogenous depression. ---
**Author:** ![foresam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3bc359/32.png) [@foresam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foresam)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/203 "2007-09-28T08:49:21Z")
Hmmm, still no answer. The lawyer must have done a good job of scaring them. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/204 "2007-09-28T10:08:28Z")
[QUOTE=foresam] KGS, If they expect me to pay them to continue my association here after my free 30 days are up, they should not limit duscussion of things that are harmful to autistic children. [/quote] You’re the one who’s limiting discussion. One-trick ponies don’t last long around here. > [@](#): > > I asked in an email and got no response Maybe there’s a reason for that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/205 "2007-09-28T11:41:03Z")
[QUOTE=foresam] Blake, [http://www.safeminds.org/research/past.html](http://www.safeminds.org/research/past.html) Proper chelation has never harmed one person. Medical malpractice involving chelation harmed 2 children. [/quote] If it doesn’t harm the children, you call it “proper chelation”. the “No true Scotsman” fallacy. > [@foresam](#): > > Snakes cat lady, > There are 3 possible causes of autism as far as I know, genetics, MMR vaccine and thimerosal. I ruled out genetics by testing. Could you admit that there might be other causes, or is your mind made up on the subject? What test did you administer to your child that eliminated genetics? > [@foresam](#): > > My son was autistic before he had his MMR vaccine. Process of elimination meant it was mercury, no testing required. You never tested your children for mercury poison before setting them up with such a drastic “therapy”?!? I don’t mind that you have your own pet theories, but to endanger the lives of your children on such flimsy evidence? > [@foresam](#): > > Mercury poisoning was confirmed by improvement during chelation. Would you waste money having a kid tested for rattlesnake poison if you had seen the snake bite him? You have no, I repeat _no_ evidence that your children ever had mercury poisoning. You didn’t see the snake bite your children. You didn’t even see the snake. You can’t even show evidence that the snake exists, let alone that it is dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/206 "2007-09-28T11:46:08Z")
[QUOTE=ConcernedParent] Do you not agree with other clinicians that ADHD and an ASD can appear to be similar in young children? [/QUOTE] I would agree that a naive observer might see one or two superficial similarities. A clinician should not have any problem differentiating the two. PDD is no more similar to ADHD than it is to the anxiety disorders, oppositional defiant disorder, depression or the psychotic disorders. Why, what similarities do you have in mind that make you feel like ADHD is really an instance of PDD? ---
**Author:** ![KathleenSeidel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5daacb/32.png) [@KathleenSeidel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KathleenSeidel)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/207 "2007-09-28T12:07:25Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] I hope you’re not claiming that people are always 100% of a particular syndrome. That’s never true. Every person is unique. 70/30 sounds like he’s saying the person is _primarily_ autistic, but his condition is “co-morbid” with ADHD. “Co-morbid” is a term that pops up a lot if you read the DSM-IV. You want to avoid any psychiatrist who comes up with a diagnosis and then tries to adjust YOUR personality to fit the diagnosis. That’s bass-ackwards, but unfortunately that’s how many doctors treat these types of syndromes. (In my experience, at least.) [/QUOTE] Good points. I’m still curious to know what diagnostic instrument would generate a result like that. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/208 "2007-09-28T12:09:47Z")
[QUOTE=foresam] Tomndebb, Post #188 [/QUOTE] Sorry. I have not yet received an e-mail from you. Based on the post, however, I will respond to you in e-mail. ---
**Author:** ![KathleenSeidel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5daacb/32.png) [@KathleenSeidel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KathleenSeidel)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/209 "2007-09-28T12:33:15Z")
[QUOTE=procida] …I’ve been got at for English spelling, and it really annoys me. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I’ve seen totally obnoxious flame wars erupt over “thiomersal/thimerosal.” ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/210 "2007-09-28T12:51:23Z")
[QUOTE=foresam] “Yet less than 10% of pregnant women get flu shots. Yup, the smoking gun.” Less than 1% of kids are autistic. [/QUOTE] But those numbers don’t mean anything unless they are correlated with each other, you see. Are ALL 1% of autistic kids the children of the 10% of women who have had flu shots? I’m guessing you don’t have data that shows it…am I right? ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/211 "2007-09-28T12:58:03Z")
[QUOTE=foresam] Blake, [http://www.safeminds.org/research/past.html](http://www.safeminds.org/research/past.html) Proper chelation has never harmed one person. Medical malpractice involving chelation harmed 2 children. Snakes cat lady, There are 3 possible causes of autism as far as I know, genetics, MMR vaccine and thimerosal. I ruled out genetics by testing. My son was autistic before he had his MMR vaccine. Process of elimination meant it was mercury, no testing required. Mercury poisoning was confirmed by improvement during chelation. Would you waste money having a kid tested for rattlesnake poison if you had seen the snake bite him? [/QUOTE] You treated your child for poisoning you don’t even know he had? “No testing required”? I am simply speechless. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/212 "2007-09-28T14:05:17Z")
[QUOTE=foresam] Rickjay, The science says chelation cures mercury poisoning. Autism and mercury poisoning are synonymous. That’s why my kids getting better. Is your kid getting better? CurtC, I think you just made that up. [/QUOTE] No, he didn’t. And autism and mercury poisoning are NOT synonymous. And if you didn’t have your child tested for metal levels before chelation, you are a fool. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/213 "2007-09-28T14:30:06Z")
[QUOTE=foresam] You didn’t answer my email about deleted posts. Could you tell us if the posts were deleted due to [Neurodiversity.com](http://Neurodiversity.com)’s whining or were you also threatened by their lawyer? Did I err by assuming you would send my post back to me? [/QUOTE] I have sent your original posts back to you by e-mail. I have still not received any e-mail from you. (There is nothing sinister implied, here, given the vagaries of the electronic communication–simply an observation.) I have neither received nor seen any communication from [Neurodiversity.com](http://Neurodiversity.com) nor from any lawyer claiming to represent [Neurodiversity.com](http://Neurodiversity.com). Your remarks were out of line for this forum regardless of any third party legal opinion. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/214 "2007-09-28T14:31:43Z")
[QUOTE=EJsGirl] And if you didn’t have your child tested for metal levels before chelation, you are a fool. [/QUOTE] Even with the conditional, this comment is too directly personal for this Forum. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![KathleenSeidel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5daacb/32.png) [@KathleenSeidel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KathleenSeidel)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/215 "2007-09-28T14:44:43Z")
[QUOTE=ConcernedParent] Neurodiversity activists, like Ms Seidel, will no doubt argue that recovered children are not “normal”. However, if a child with autism makes such progress after intervention that they become indistinguishable from their peers, and therefore can no longer meet the criteria for autism, they are normal. [/QUOTE] IMHO, it’s premature to proclaim any child once diagnosed autistic “recovered” until they have made it through adolescence, at the very least. PDDs are conditions that manifest over the course of a person’s life. People develop skills, and encounter new challenges at different stages of their development. ASD children who, with appropriate education and support, become “indistinguishable from their peers” during their primary school years may very well become more distinguishable from the same peers a few years later, once the adolescent juices start to flow and social relationships and educational demands become more complicated. Parents who are eager to dump a diagnosis early on may find themselves at square one a few years down the road, if they need to prove eligibility for special educational support in secondary school. Personally, I don’t tend to use terms like “normal/abnormal.” Whenever I hear the word “abnormal,” I hear the [voice of Igor in Young Frankenstein](http://www.ladyofthecake.com/mel/frank/sounds/abby.wav). [QUOTE=ConcernedParent] Medical professionals have their eyes closed just like Neurodiversity activists, refusing to believe that some children with Autism are cured. Perhaps they need to see it for themselves, to believe it. [/QUOTE] I have watched [one of the Autism Research Institute’s videos of “recovered children”](http://www.autismwebsite.com/autism-recoveredchildren/index.html) (the one with Lou Diamond Phillips as impresario). The video shows a gathering of justifiably proud parents and their successful children smiling for the camera, but does not provide evidence that the children’s minicolumns have been reconfigured, or guarantee that those children don’t rock or stim when they’re stressed and no one can see them (to offer just a couple of examples of what you don’t see on that video). [QUOTE=ConcernedParent] it is not the business of self-diagnosed “autistics”, or parents of children with mild Aspergers, atypical Aspergers, or autistic traits to dictate what is, and what is not, appropriate care for someone else’s child. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=procida] I look forward to the day when the neurodiversity people stop telling parents of autistic children how to run their lives… it isn’t their right to try to dictate to any parent what that parent choses to do… I don’t believe the neurodiversity group have the right to tell anyone how to live their lives, or bring up their children. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure what y’all mean by “dictate.” Everyone has the right to express their opinions. It might seem desirable for people to be spared the sound of voices of those who disagree with them or fail to validate their decisions, but it is not a realistic expectation. [QUOTE=ConcernedParent] Sadly, some parents of recently diagnosed young children are adopting Neurodiversity philosophy, believing that their children will in time morph without any kind of special intervention from a child with Autism into a higher-functioning communicative adult, such as the one in the picture essay, and that given acceptance, love and time they will one day be able to communicate with their parents. [/QUOTE] This is an inaccurate generalization. Every family has a unique response to disability. Each family has the responsibility of determining what sort of education and medical care they will provide for their children. That being said, I have never encountered anyone who advocates “doing nothing” for any child. [QUOTE=ConcernedParent] And if they believe as I do that Jasmine O’Neill has never had Autism, could they offer an explanation as to how her book which has become the bible to so many “autistics” now claiming to have autism… And the author of the Getting the Truth Out website has said that this is one of the 70-odd books on autism she has read, but this particular book is her bible which she carries around everywhere with her… even Kathleen Seidel advertises her book on her Neurodiversity website. [/QUOTE] One person liking a book and calling it her “bible” does not equate to a crowd. And the presence of a book in a book list or on a library shelf does not necessarily mean that the list compiler or librarian agrees with its contents. When I updated my [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) listings last year, I created entries for every single book on autism that was available in the United States. [QUOTE=ConcernedParent] Please read the review[s…] “Accurate information from the source”, and from the review, “I am Autistic, and I love this book. Autism is not a condition, it is a personality type. This book succeeds in making that point.” [/QUOTE] I see nothing insidious about these opinions. Amazon accepts reviews from anyone who cares to write one. You can submit one, too. [QUOTE=ConcernedParent] But, for goodness sake, please don’t let your friend know about the online Aspie quizzes, otherwise he might join Aspies For Freedom and get the idea that he and his kind might one day be wiped out by the evil Neurotypicals! In the event of a cure being found and forced upon them, some members have already considered arming themselves. They feel they need to protect their superior genes! [/QUOTE] I tend to disagree with anyone who suggests that they or any group is “genetically superior.” And I don’t get worked up about teens and twenty-somethings who express a conviction that they are better than anyone else, or who express their convictions in inflammatory ways. The world is full of them. Getting worked up about that kind of thing is only productive of stomach acid. [QUOTE=ConcernedParent] It is grossly unfair to move the goalposts for an autism diagnosis in 2000, and begin labelling individuals with atypical Aspergers and mild Aspergers… Parents of children with regressive late-onset Autism after vaccination in the 90s were relying on the diagnosis of an ASD remaining constant. That has not happened. [/QUOTE] “Relying on” for what purpose? Expansion of diagnostic criteria has enabled people who need help to get help. [QUOTE=procida] Obviously, the neurodiversity group considers those who aren’t like them, abnormal anyway… [/QUOTE] This is an inaccurate and unsourced generalization. [QUOTE=procida] There is disagreement as to what constitutes helpful treatment and what doesn’t. [/QUOTE] Agreed. [QUOTE=procida] If a child tests positive for mercury, AND for lead, what then? No doubt, the neurodiversity group would still say: “Don’t treat.” [/QUOTE] I, for one, would ask about the laboratory tests that purport to demonstrate the mercury or lead poisoning. Chelation-provoked urinalysis (the chelationists’ test of choice) produces artificially inflated results. Further, it is my understanding that there are no established reference norms for provoked results. [Doctor’s Data: What’s in a Name?](http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=19) and [Mercurial Laboratories](http://photoninthedarkness.blogspot.com/2006/03/mercurial-laboratories.html) are a couple of interesting articles on this subject. (They’re not peer-reviewed, but nonetheless offer some thought-provoking reading.) And here’s a [petition](http://www.petitiononline.com/DDITESTS/petition.html) launched by some Doctor’s Data customers, pleading for appropriate reference ranges so that they’re not comparing apples to oranges. [QUOTE=Marienee] Here’s another clue: as the numbers of the “other” increase and as they enter society, whomever the “other” may be, society is re -tooled to accomodate them. If one in a hundred people have ASD, then it seems a little, um, ambitious to eradicate the disorder in exactly the way you propose, wouldn’t you say? [/QUOTE] Here here. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/216 "2007-09-28T15:09:13Z")
[QUOTE=foresam] There are 3 possible causes of autism as far as I know, genetics, MMR vaccine and thimerosal. [/quote] There are numerous _possible_ causes of autism, but of the ones you mentioned only genetics has any valid scientific backing. > [@](#): > > I ruled out genetics by testing. There is no genetic test for autism, so you could not have ruled out a genetic factor. Your “ruling out” the MMR vaccine as a cause of your son’s autism would not impress parents who are still blaming the MMR shot. Now, there’s no evidence that MMR vaccination causes autism, and the main study that implicated it has been retracted by most of its authors (after it was found that researchers including lead author Andrew Wakefield had been paid huge sums of money by a lawyers group hoping to file lucrative lawsuits. Wakefield and two other researchers have been brought up on charges of professional misconduct. As a result of the MMR scare, vaccination rates have dropped in Britain and measles outbreaks are taking place along with serious complications including death). However proponents of the MMR theory (like Jenny McCarthy) are refusing to give up their theory, believing that _they_ know more than the “science guys”. What makes their ill-informed opinions and biases any more impressive than yours? Here’s [a discussion of a new study](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/09/a_bad_day_for_antivaccinationists.php), which like other well-conducted research before it, shows no link between thimerosal and neurodevelopmental disorders. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/217 "2007-09-28T15:11:57Z")
Actually **procida** removing it was a reasonably prudent thing to do at the time, as there was no way to be _absolutely_ sure it was without any effect and there was, at that point in time, little health risk incurred by its removal. Saying that there was no evidence that it was dangerous in any way at those levels wasn’t saying the same thing as saying we had absolute proof of no risk and wasn’t good enough. Newer mercury-free preservatives had been developed. The data that proves its innocence has been collected since. [QUOTE=foresam] I ruled out genetics by testing. [/quote] Wow. You must be the expert after all if you’ve been able to identify and test for all of the genes that are associated with autistic conditions when the best scientists are merely at the point of figuring out how many genes are involved and doing linkage analyses using molecular genetic techniques do develop the list of likely suspect genes. Please share this list of all the genes involved and how to test for them with us lowly physicians and scientists whose knowledge is limited to research studies and working at the benches. Then the scientists can break for lunch. Who paid for the studies that showed the lack of an association of thimerosal and cognitive deficits and/or autism? In America it was the CDC with cooperation from various autism advocacy groups for study design (one of which who withdrew their support after the findings came back other than how they wanted). The Denmark study was funded by the Denmark National Research Foundation and the Stanley Medical Research Institute. I _believe_ that the English study was funded by their Dept of Public Health but I do not the article at hand. Of course all those are government sources so of course they are part of the international cover-up. (They use black helicopters to pass out the plans.) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/218 "2007-09-28T15:21:06Z")
And oh a [link](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/newspapers/sunday_times/britain/article1265373.ece) on the pay-off to Wakefield referenced by **Jackmannii** > [@](#): > > Wakefield was paid £435,643 in fees, plus £3,910 expenses. > > Wakefield’s work for the lawyers began two years before he published his now notorious report in The Lancet medical journal in February 1998, proposing a link between the vaccine and autism. Since you are curious about who is paying for research and all. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/219 "2007-09-28T15:25:29Z")
And how much money was then spent by various governments since that pay-off on the studies that ended up proving the MMR safe? Multiple studies looking at literally hundreds of thousands of children? Money that should have been going to the basic research at understanding the real science behind this condition. ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515/220 "2007-09-28T16:35:16Z")
[QUOTE=foresam] I ruled out genetics by testing. [/QUOTE] No kidding! What test(s) did you do? Did you run them yourself? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-the-truth-out-on-autism/420515.md?page=12)