# Get this book. You need this book **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2001, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292 "2001-12-01T10:24:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Anal\_Scurvy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c57346/32.png) [@Anal\_Scurvy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anal_Scurvy)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/21 "2001-12-02T05:10:52Z")
If we’re just shouting out “must read” books at random, I want to nominate Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan. ---
**Author:** ![saepiroth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@saepiroth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saepiroth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/22 "2001-12-02T05:23:34Z")
yo, **G.** , come back in here and say what you mean when you say “The Columbine High killings are much weirder than they are supposed to be”. a ‘drive-by thread’ is even worse than a ‘drive-by post’ to ten orders of magnitude. don’t go and be like that. ---
**Author:** ![foxfiregrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3da27b/32.png) [@foxfiregrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foxfiregrrl)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/23 "2001-12-02T05:28:24Z")
I’ve read the book mentioned in the OP, and just want to say that it really is a good read. It’s important to take the stories with a grain of salt, and I certainly wouldn’t believe any of the stories without looking at information from other cites, but it really does present each case with a lot of credible evidance. I’d recommend it to those people who enjoy ripping conspiracy theories to shreads, because it provides a worthy challenge. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/24 "2001-12-02T05:58:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anal Scurvy \* > \*\*If we’re just shouting out “must read” books at random, I want to nominate Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan. \*\* Good idea. Let’s get this forced over to IMHO. Everyone **must read** _Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire_. GET CRACKIN’! ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/25 "2001-12-02T07:29:12Z")
I, personally, have two cents to add: The Serbian atrocity denial is just like Holocaust revisionism. Stuff about how the “Serbian people couldn’t have done this, it was NATO’s fault, the UN is lying, etc etc.” Oddly enough, I’m half German and half Serbian, and I don’t deny either. I’ve done research on each, and the Serbian genocide killed more than 8,000. Secondly, a friend of mine knew Eric Harris personally. There was nothing weird about Columbine. Dyland killed himself- 9mm shot the left temple. His autopsy report is in public domain. So is Harris’. BTW, Dylan was left handed. Surveillance videos also show Dylan firing the 9mm. Conclusion: Dylan Klebold killed himself. Third, the Murrah building was not leveld. It’s quite clear from aftermath pictures that the blast originated from where the rental truck was. Finally, Noam Chomsky is nothing more than an overrated scholar, linguist, and pseudo-anarchist. ---
**Author:** ![G.Nome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@G.Nome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G.Nome)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/26 "2001-12-02T10:46:55Z")
saepiroth: The existence of the Columbine pre-enactment film is either very weird or it’s just a coincidence. What is also very weird or just a coincidence is the connection between John Hinckley (who tried to assassinate Ronald Reagan) and George Bush. This is also metioned in the book. The Bush and Hinckley families were/are very close friends, apparently. Daoloth: There is detailed evidence presented in the book for the contention that McVeigh’s bomb was not the only one. A major point is that “building columns which were in direct promiximity to the blast remained standing while columns which stood 60 feet from the Ryder truck were mysteriously demolished.” If I keep going like this I’ll end up by typing out the whole book. I don’t know if even typing what I have is a particularly good idea. I will say, though, that some of the best stuff is non-political in nature. A parapsychologist presents convincing evidence for the existence of ESP, Aspartame is said to be highly toxic and the big bang theory is discredited. ---
**Author:** ![G.Nome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@G.Nome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G.Nome)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/27 "2001-12-02T11:14:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > \*\*Secondly, a friend of mine knew Eric Harris personally. There was nothing weird about Columbine. Dyland killed himself- 9mm shot the left temple. His autopsy report is in public domain. So is Harris’. BTW, Dylan was left handed. Surveillance videos also show Dylan firing the 9mm. Conclusion: Dylan Klebold killed himself. > \*\* From the book: An article in The Denver Post of May 29, 1999 said: A Jefferson County judge ruled that the autopsy reports would not be released to the public. From the book: Klebold was right handed. What you say is interesting. The Columbine article was written by David McGowan. You should contact him and sort it out. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/28 "2001-12-02T13:28:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by G. Nome \* > … A parapsychologist presents convincing evidence for the existence of ESP, Aspartame is said to be highly toxic and the big bang theory is discredited. \*\* ``` Now we're getting somewhere! ``` 1. Anyone calling him/herself a parapsychologist is immediately suspect, in my book. Have they managed to get a paper published in, say, “Nature” with their startling evidence? 2. Aspartame probably is toxic, in high enough amounts. Practically everything is. 3. There is plenty of discussion on the Net and elsewhere about the relative merits of the Big Bang and other theories. The fact that someone doesn’t believe in it is news? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/29 "2001-12-02T13:36:17Z")
Re: Bosnian war [Here](http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/bosnia/nbos002.htm) are some stats for the Yugoslavian conflict, not including Kosovo. In Slovenia, 70 dead, Croat-Serb war had over 10,000 dead Bosnian war had estimated 200,000 dead. The numbers for Kosovo are undetermined. This [speculates around 2,000 or so](http://www.alb-net.com/warcrimes-img/warcrimes.htm). The World Bank estimates the casualties on all sides at 250,000. [Cite here.](http://www.worldbank.org/html/extdr/extme/bhgen.html) If by “War in Yugoslavia” you mean the whole conflict from 1992, then I cannot believe the claims of the book. Out of 250,000 casualties, you are saying the Serbs are only responsible for 1%? Let us suppose the numbers are exaggerated ten-fold. Then we still only have the Serbs accounting for 10%. That’s BS. Period. ---
**Author:** ![saepiroth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@saepiroth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saepiroth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/30 "2001-12-02T18:41:47Z")
\<— this out-of-touch idiot asks; what pre-enactment film? ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/31 "2001-12-02T19:02:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by G. Nome \* > **There is detailed evidence presented in the book for the contention that McVeigh’s bomb was not the only one. A major point is that "building columns which were in direct promiximity to the blast remained standing while columns which stood 60 feet from the Ryder truck were mysteriously demolished."** So what? for that to be credible evidence, then you have to assume that the blast came from the truck in a perfect arc/circle. Now, I’m no explosives expert, but I suspect that bombs, especially homemade bombs, don’t throw a blast in a perfect circle. In the case of the Ryder truck, the blast was probably muffled in some areas and extra-strong in others. Maybe the standing columns were in the part of the arc where the blast was not particularly strong. It sounds like an interesting read, but it also sounds like the author is a nut. ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/32 "2001-12-02T19:38:00Z")
Here, I’m quoting directly from article written by a well-respected Aussie scientist which appeared in one of our weekend papers. As the article itself isn’t available online (I’m pretty sure he’s answered the question on his science forum before though, and I’ll try to track down the link for that answer), I’ll link to the information on his homepage which establishes is credentials as a scientist. [Who is Karl Kruszelnicki?](http://abc.net.au/science/k2/aboutkk.htm) According to Karl’s article, Aspartame is too big to enter the bloodstream and is broken down in the gut into phenylalanine, aspartic acid and methanol. Here, at least, many products containing phenylalanine carry a warning about its presence for the benefit of those people suffering from phenylketonuria. These warnings first appeared on soft drinks. The article goes onto point out that there is actually more phenylanaline in “regular” foods than in diet drinks (making the warnings of dubious value), and also more methanol. In short, the contention about Aspartame being dangerous to health seems to have originated from a few facts which are true in themselves but which have been bundled together in way which isn’t supported by science. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/33 "2001-12-02T20:08:16Z")
G. Nome said: > [@](#): > > I will say, though, that some of the best stuff is non-political in nature. A parapsychologist presents convincing evidence for the existence of ESP, Aspartame is said to be highly toxic and the big bang theory is discredited. Oh, goody, more baloney. So what is this “convincing evidence for the existence of ESP”? How is “the big bang theory discredited”? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/34 "2001-12-02T20:49:26Z")
G. Nome wrote: > [@](#): > > The book is a collection of articles by dissident voices like Noam Chomsky, R.U. Sirius and Douglas Rushkoff. Well, that convinced me! Anybody named **R.U. Sirius** couldn’t _possibly_ be pulling our collective leg. > [@](#): > > there seems to be a consensus of opinion that Klebold and Harris didn’t act alone and that Klebold didn’t shoot himself but was shot by someone else … who was hidden in the Grassy Knoll, right? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/35 "2001-12-02T21:01:14Z")
G. Nome wrote, in the OP: > [@](#): > > There is no way Timothy McVeigh’s bomb could have destroyed the Murrah building alone. Bombs were placed inside the building. I’ve heard this theory before. It was promulgated by a self-proclaimed “demolitions expert” with unverified credentials. His argument was that because there was no deep blast crater underneath McVeigh’s truck-bomb that the explosion could not possibly have been powerful enough to do as much damage to the Murrah building as was actually inflicted. Unfortunately for him, I believe his notion of how much cratering there should have been came from watching films of explosives that had been planted **in the ground**. McVeigh’s truck bomb would have been several feet off the ground and thinly shielded on the bottom by the truck’s chassis. It’s also telling that he came up with this theory in order to “prove” that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms – the evil “jack-booted thugs” of Ruby Ridge and Waco – had deliberately planted explosives in the building to make “patriots” like McVeigh look bad. Note that these in-building explosives would have to have been planted and wired with enough care and precision that (A) they went off at precisely the same moment as McVeigh’s truck-bomb, and (B) they left behind no evidence for their existence (such as obvious blast epicenters). Boy, that A.T.F. must sure be a bunch of wily fellows! ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/36 "2001-12-02T21:17:25Z")
Timothy McVeigh positioned the barrels of explosive material into a “T” shape, which directed the blast more in one direction. (According to the book “American Terrorist”. The author actually spent time interviewing McVeigh.) ---
**Author:** ![pesch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pesch/32/4925_2.png) [@pesch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pesch)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/37 "2001-12-02T21:46:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*Note that these in-building explosives would have to have been planted and wired with enough care and precision that (A) they went off at precisely the same moment as McVeigh’s truck-bomb, and (B) they left behind no evidence for their existence (such as obvious blast epicenters). Boy, that A.T.F. must sure be a bunch of wily fellows! \*\* Don’t forget © that they either knew McVeigh would park the truck there (which makes him culpable for the act anyway, unless you want to argue that he shouldn’t be executed because “his” bomb wouldn’t have caused so much damage, or that he was brain-washed into making big-boom, _then have him **not** drop the dime on the ATF and the government which he was fighting against._ [sub]I know I know, where using logic is concerned, you might as well be talking to the chickens.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![G.Nome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@G.Nome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G.Nome)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/38 "2001-12-02T22:36:19Z")
Laughing Lagomorph and David B: This is the parapsychologist in question: [http://www.annonline.com/interviews/971006/biography.html](http://www.annonline.com/interviews/971006/biography.html) Tracer: If all Klebold had was a “humanitarian rifle” then of course someone else would have shot him. Probably a right-wing Cuban with mob affiliations. By the way, have you seen [Rotten.com](http://Rotten.com)’s most recent suicide photo - the guy in the car? Now, that was a gun. Also Tracer: The demolitions experts (who seem very un-self-proclaimed to me) don’t believe 4,800 pounds of Ammonium Nitrate mixed with oil had enough explosive capability to cause the Oklahoma explosion. They say that ammonium nitrate is a poor choice for breaching reinforced concrete and that believing it alone was responsible requires “a physical and scientific leap of faith”. Buy the book. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/39 "2001-12-02T22:46:02Z")
> [@](#): > > The article on Yugoslavia is by Michael Parenti who says: to reject the demonized images of Milosevic and of the Serbian people is not to idealize them or claim that Serb forces are faultless or free of crimes. It is merely to challenge the one-sided propaganda that laid the grounds for NATO’s aggression against Yugoslavia". If that’s the same Michael Parenti who wrote _ **Make Believe Media: The Politics of Entertainment** _ I can tell you the book’s probably not worth reading for that reason alone. Parenti’s one of these guys who claims that because movies influence people to do things like re-enact the Russian Roulette scene from _ **The Deer Hunter** _ that they’re bad and shouldn’t be allowed to be made. (Of course, I’ve got to wonder about the mentality of someone who would _willingly_ point a loaded gun at their own head for fun, but Parenti doesn’t.) And what’s so damned “secret” about the film those wackos shot at Columbine anyway? It was all over the news shortly after the story broke. I think some parents are even (or were) suing the school over it, since the nutjobs did it as a school project using the school’s own equipment and with the teacher’s permission! And the Viet Cong were responsible for atrocities that were “airbrushed over”? Uh, yeah. I think we know a lot about what the Viet Cong did. However, I imagine that a number of the _US_ atrocities were airbrushed over. (Let’s face it, we’re only just _now_ hearing about some of the things that happened in Korea, done by US soldiers.) And > [@](#): > > The demolitions experts (who seem very un-self-proclaimed to me) don’t believe 4,800 pounds of Ammonium Nitrate mixed with oil had enough explosive capability to cause the Oklahoma explosion. They say that ammonium nitrate is a poor choice for breaching reinforced concrete and that believing it alone was responsible requires “a physical and scientific leap of faith”. What kind of crack are these guys smoking? Ammonium nitrate is the single most commonly used explosive!!! Perhaps it might not be the _ideal_ choice to blow a building, but it’ll do the job! ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2001, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292/40 "2001-12-02T23:14:19Z")
One should also note that ammonium nitrate was primary in the 1947 explosion at Texas City, which killed over five hundred people, destroyed entire streets, and could be felt 60 miles away in Houston. Also, Dylan did not use a rifle. He used a 12 gauge sawed off and a 9mm semi-auto pistol. Harris was also armed with a 12 gauge sawed off shotgun but was armed secondly with a 9mm rifle. And yes, their autopsies are in public domain. You can see Harris’ in The Smoking Gun archives. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-this-book-you-need-this-book/96292.md?page=3)